what's the diffrence?

hohun when I find that paper i'll post it. It will not be right away. All I remember is that it was about 109 engines and that I found is funny becasue of the BF Then ME used togther.

As far as the 109 data plates, I'm sorry I don't have enough knowledge to help out there. The only data plate I seen in person is the one off the restored 109 at the US air force museum. I don't even remember what it read now. I may have a pic of it.

buzzard said:

Kruska,

Re: "...almost right."

I don't have any original source documents, but AV Ishoven's, "Messerschmitt"(Gentry Books, '75), states that Messerschmitt and Theo Croneiss (a noted German sportsflyer and operater of a flying school) founded Messerschmitt Flugzeugbau GmbH on April 28, 1926. the company's first new design was the M18, a small 4-6 passenger airliner, of which 25 were eventually built.

The BFW (derived from the earlier Udet company) was having problems, and as Messerschmitt lacked the capacity to fulfill his orders, the RVM proposed that the two companies pool their resources. After long negotiations, it was agreed that BFW would concentrate on production, and Messerschmitt would limit its activities to the development of new designs. Both companies retained their independence, and after signing a contract to that effect on Sept.8/27, Willy Messerschmitt moved his personnel and equipment to Augsberg, where he designed aircraft under the 'Bf' designation until the event you posted about took place in '38.

JL

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Hello Buzzard, let's put it this way

First there are "two" different companies named BFW so (1) Munich and (2) Augsburg

Secondly there is a Messerschmitt Flugzeugbau GmbH

1) "Gustav Otto Flugmaschinen GmbH Munich was taken over by a Consortium in 1916 and renamed "Bayerische-Flugzeug-Werke AG" - "BFW AG"

1) After ww1, development of planes was forbidden in Germany - Therefore the "BFW AG" started to get involved in Motorcycle production

1) The investor Camillo Castiglioni took over the majority share of the BFW AG and incorporated machines and the productionplant for engine and aluminium die-casting from the Bayerischen Motoren Werke AG "BMW AG" and subsequently renamed the former "BFW AG" into "BMW" in 1922.

As such the Company "BFW AG" Munich vanished / was deregistered

2) The "Udet-Flugzeugbau GmbH" in Augsburg was formed into a AG and subsequently named "Bayerische-Flugzeug-Werke AG" in 1926.

So the name BFW AG came back into the market

2) In 1927 the BFW AG Augsburg signed a co-operation deal with the Messerschmitt Flugzeugbau GmbH, which had been registered in Bamberg by Willy in 1923.

2) In 1928 Willy became a Board Member and the Chief Designer for the "BFW AG"

2) In 1938 the "BFW AG" was formed/termed into "Messerschmitt AG" and as such all designations from 1938 onward carried the term "Me" instead of the previous "Bf".

Therefore as I stated earlier it is wrong to term a 109 or 110 as a Me since these a/c had been registered previously as Bf by the RLM, which does not exclude the fact that it still happened. Obviously neither the RLM nor Willy redesignated these a/c officially so that a burocratic person could indeed reject any admittance of a document that stated Me109 or Me110.

Regards
Kruska

well this i say is my best forum yet.

and your best question. Good job!

It's a thread (in the Aviation forum), but yeah, pretty good.

Hi Kruska,

>1) "Gustav Otto Flugmaschinen GmbH Munich was taken over by a Consortium in 1916 and renamed "Bayerische-Flugzeug-Werke AG" - "BFW AG"

Thanks for this bit of information! I had never heard of that before

>Therefore as I stated earlier it is wrong to term a 109 or 110 as a Me since these a/c had been registered previously as Bf by the RLM, which does not exclude the fact that it still happened.

Actually, it could be considered "wrong" only if you'd add a specific reference to the RLM technical designation system.

"Me 109" was the official RLM name for the type, approved by the RLM and used by the RLM for communication to the public. The technical designation system was another official tool of the RLM, but one with a much narrower purpose.

"Me 109" also was the official manufacturer's name for the type, as the export manual shows. In fact, Messerschmitt did not readily let the RLM re-name his design to "Bf" as the history of the "rejection order" shows.

>Obviously neither the RLM nor Willy redesignated these a/c officially so that a burocratic person could indeed reject any admittance of a document that stated Me109 or Me110.

Hm, I don't think it was a question of personal disposition - an order was issued by the authorities of the Technisches Amt (I suppose), and the lower ranks had to follow it in order to exert pressure on Messerschmitt to abandon his designation and to comply with that of the Technisches Amt. That's a rather blunt show of strength on part of the technocrats, not something that would ever happen as normal course of business.

However, obviously the Technisches Amt had no power over the other departments of the RLM, so the ministry continued to popularize the "Me 109" designation in their official communication despite internally using the concurrent "Bf 109" designation.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Njaco said:

and your best question. Good job!

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thanks

Just to back up Henning's comment re pronunciation of 'me 109', 109 in German is ein hundert neun, usually abbreviated to Hundert-neun ('hundred-nine').
Likewise He 162 is said 'He (pronounced like the 'he' in 'head' or as a short 'hee', depending on speaker's accent) hundert zwo und sechzig' ('hundred two and sixty'). Grammatically, 2 is zwei, but in military and radio-communication phonetics 'zwo'.