drgondog
Major
Glider - the 8th AF were credited w/116.5. Those credits do not reflect 9th or 12 AF or any that actually were shot down by bombers
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Interesting statement. So the Luftwaffe claimed approx 185 allied aircraft shot down by the Me262 a high proportion of which were bombers. Then the USAAF claimed about 115 Me 262 kills and the RAF around 30 ( I don't know the exact number but this seems about right with 15 claimed by Tempests) then in fighter combat the Me 262 lost out.
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Interesting statement. So the Luftwaffe claimed approx 185 allied aircraft shot down by the Me262 a high proportion of which were bombers. Then the USAAF claimed about 115 Me 262 kills and the RAF around 30 ( I don't know the exact number but this seems about right with 15 claimed by Tempests) then in fighter combat the Me 262 lost out.
Going back to the title of the thread, what exactly was the advantage gained by the Me262. I certainly agree that it had a huge potential advantage but what was the actual advantage gained.
JoeB said:So, on Me-262 fighter v fighter I don't see much doubt: in the circumstances prevailing the Me 262 was ineffective against piston engine fighters in air combat.
Best late war Allied fighters were capable of catching Me 262 if they could use extra speed gained by dive, have timed their bounce correctly, preferably with some surprise element on their side and with adequate shooting skill was shown by pilot(s).
Juha
To summarize recent posts, I haven't seen anything that credibly contradicts what I said. Foreman and Harvy give only a handful of USAAF fighters certainly downed by Me 262's (and hardly any other Allied fighters either), and Bill says he found something like 10 or less looking more carefully, I assume 8th AF, and there's no reason in F=H or generally to suppose a lot of fighter losses by the other US numbered AF's or the RAF to jets. Whatever the 262's claimed or were officially credited with, it doesn't seem plausible to maintain that they actually shot down many Allied piston engine fighters.
OTOH Foreman and Harvy give, case by case with each episode explained, as I counted up looking at my notes, 113 Me-262's downed in air combat, almost all by Allied fighters (the great bulk by the USAAF), German losses which correspond with Allied claims/credits (the 262 losses represented around 80% of the Allied credits, 8/9/15th AF, RAF, combined). I haven't seen any credible reason to throw out F+H's count as at least approximately correct.
So, on Me-262 fighter v fighter I don't see much doubt: in the circumstances prevailing the Me 262 was ineffective against piston engine fighters in air combat.
As usual, I don't see a reason to obsess about claims/credits when actual losses are *generally* known (of course not completely, never are 100% completely with causes 100% certain).
As far as jet claims being more accurate, the Soviets racked up an extremely high overclaim rate in Korea, and one of the legitimate reasons given is the split second nature of hit and run attacks by jets, especially with big caliber cannon armament. In that situation too the MiG-15 only needed to land a hit or few to score a kill, but the MiG pilots consistently overoptimisitically believed they'd done so when they had not. And in general, narrative explanations of why claims 'must have been' accurate are useless. The only way to tell is to check opposing losses.
Agreed - for jet or piston. I have spent many years researching LW/RAF and USAAF claims/awards and it is easy to say that the details required to definitively match shooter to shootee is difficult at best for more than a one on one engagement (or few on few).. a pilot spotting a foe in an uncertain location at an imprecise time with multiple units in the same area and then trying to pinpoint an exact time and location after a high adrenalin chase?
Very difficult to write up, assess the details, make a preliminary intelligence assessment and then pass on to higher authority leaves huge room for error.
Joe
Can you give more exact source because in his JG 7 book Boehme writes on p. 173 "According to conservative estimates JG 7 shot down about 20 Russian aircraft during the final weeks of the war."?
On p. 189 while noting that to many LW pilots Me 262 must have seemed like a kind of "life insurance" he noted that loss rate was high. "At 15%, losses in action among the Me 262s which made contact with enemy – if the 56.5% of the unluckly 10.4.45 are left out – are surprising high." And noted that "This rate of loss is not much lower than that of the conventional fighter units with piston-engined a/c."
Richard T. Eger had counted from the table in the book that between Jan. 1 and May 3 1945 JG 7 scored 225 to 226 confirmed victories and 37 probables.
Juha
Sorry Soren but the man is right - "Fair Fight?" Come on, are we talking about a school yard here?!?!? In the end the "unfair" situation played into the hands of the victors and because of the situation, in the end to Me 262 was ineffective as its presence made no difference to the outcome as we all know, and as the old saying goes "all's fair in love in war."Sorry JoeB but to claim that the Me262 was ineffective against piston engined fighters is to be extremely ignorant and unable to look objectively on the issue at hand. The plane was most often outnumbered, shot up whilst landing or returning to base, in short it was never a fair fight; war isn't.
Sorry Soren but the man is right - "Fair Fight?" Come on, are we talking about a school yard here?!?!? In the end the "unfair" situation played into the hands of the victors and because of the situation, in the end to Me 262 was ineffective as its presence made no difference to the outcome as we all know, and as the old saying goes "all's fair in love in war."
A lone Me262 could attack a bomber stream swarmed by escorts and still hope getting away with it. What other a/c, Axis or Allied could do that? Answer: NONE.
QUOTE]
Hi Soren
There are literally dozens of examples from Allied and Axis forces wher a single fighter or perhaps two or three, would attack formations of 10, 20 50 or even 100 enemy aircraft, and get away with it unscathed.
The 262 might have a greater chance of getting away with it unscathed, because of its speed etc, but it is untrue to say that other fighters could not do this as well
A lone Me262 could attack a bomber stream swarmed by escorts and still hope getting away with it. What other a/c, Axis or Allied could do that? Answer: NONE.
QUOTE]
Hi Soren
There are literally dozens of examples from Allied and Axis forces wher a single fighter or perhaps two or three, would attack formations of 10, 20 50 or even 100 enemy aircraft, and get away with it unscathed.
The 262 might have a greater chance of getting away with it unscathed, because of its speed etc, but it is untrue to say that other fighters could not do this as well
Parsifal lets please refrain from misinterpreting what I wrote on purpose. If a lone Fw-190D-9 attacked a US bomber stream in late 1944 or 1945 with a swarm of escorts keeping a close eye, then sorry but the Fw-190D-9 is deadmeat in that case. It would be unable to escape the escorts, the P-51 being just as fast in level flight and on top of that featuring generally better performance at high alts whilst on top of that always flying above the bombers to come zooming down. Only the Me262 had a good chance of getting away with such an attack. It was nearly 200 km/h faster than its' closest opposition. Like many of the pilots who faced the Me262 in combat have put it: "It went by at a speed which made it look like we were standing still"
And directly from the gospel of fighter pilots: Speed is life!
No he isn't right FLYBOYJ, and knowing how intellectual a person you are (and no thats not a snide remark or sarcasm, I mean it) I honestly haven't got the slightest clue as to how you can't see that right now. He claims the Me262 was ineffective against fighters, which is just downright wrong to put it mildly and goes against what every person who actually got to fly the bird says.
I mean come now, facts are on the table FLYBOYJ, the Me262 was mush faster than any Allied fighter and had much superior climb rate and high speed handling. I goes without saying that if flown well it was near untouchable, but like many historians have pointed out over the years by late 1944 the Germans weren't capable of capitalizing on this advantage, there simply being too little fuel skilled pilots left to fly the bird in any meaningful numbers and the LW being completely outnumbered in the air. No a/c made during WW2 would've made a bigger difference than the Me262, quite simply because no other a/c had the performance to even attempt it.
A lone Me262 could attack a bomber stream swarmed by escorts and still hope getting away with it. What other a/c, Axis or Allied could do that? Answer: NONE.
And then there's British RAF chief test pilot Eric Brown whom rated the Me-262 as flat out the best fighter aircraft of the entire war. And he stated that he gave the 262 this rating having flown all versions of the Spitfire and the Mustang along with the Bf-109, FW-190 and Ta-152.
And as Adolf Galland said himself:
"if I had had 500 operational Me-262s I could have stopped the daylight bombing raids."
There's a reason renowned veterans historians alike say it [Me262] could've changed the war.
I am confident Bill Erich will agree with me on this.
In the case of the JV44 I totally agree Bill, but JG7 wasn't purely made up from good pilots.
No he isn't right FLYBOYJ, and knowing how intellectual a person you are (and no thats not a snide remark or sarcasm, I mean it) I honestly haven't got the slightest clue as to how you can't see that right now. He claims the Me262 was ineffective against fighters, which is just downright wrong to put it mildly and goes against what every person who actually got to fly the bird says.
I mean come now, facts are on the table FLYBOYJ, the Me262 was mush faster than any Allied fighter and had much superior climb rate and high speed handling. I goes without saying that if flown well it was near untouchable, but like many historians have pointed out over the years by late 1944 the Germans weren't capable of capitalizing on this advantage, there simply being too little fuel skilled pilots left to fly the bird in any meaningful numbers and the LW being completely outnumbered in the air. No a/c made during WW2 would've made a bigger difference than the Me262, quite simply because no other a/c had the performance to even attempt it.
And did they do it to the effectively to stop the bombing (see comment one) NOA lone Me262 could attack a bomber stream swarmed by escorts and still hope getting away with it. What other a/c, Axis or Allied could do that? Answer: NONE.
And then there's British RAF chief test pilot Eric Brown whom rated the Me-262 as flat out the best fighter aircraft of the entire war. And he stated that he gave the 262 this rating having flown all versions of the Spitfire and the Mustang along with the Bf-109, FW-190 and Ta-152.
And as Adolf Galland said himself:
"if I had had 500 operational Me-262s I could have stopped the daylight bombing raids."
There's a reason renowned veterans historians alike say it [Me262] could've changed the war.
I am confident Bill Erich will agree with me on this.
And there's nothing there I'll disagree with BUT - was the 262 effective enough to prevent the Mustangs from doing their jobs or from inflicting enough bomber losses so the 8th AF would halt or curtail the bombing of Germany in the spring of 1945?
And did they do it to the effectively to stop the bombing (see comment one) NO
And again I agree with all the statements but you're not "seeing the forest from the tress." "Could have, would have, should have." Despite how good it was and how advanced it was, it could not stop what it was up against, and even if the Soviet losses are substantiated, the 262 inflicted only 1% losses against the 8AF. Yes it was out numbered but as stated "all's fair in love in war."
In the end it COULD NOT accomplish its objective despite being the best fighter of WW2, and yes all reasons given are valid, but in the end it WAS ineffective....
And oh by the way - I too voted for the -262.