Which fighters were "thick skinned?"

FLYBOYJ · Apr 21, 2005

Try: C C Alloys Corporation 209 East Jefferson Street, Purcell OK. I have no Idea where they are at. If you get to bakersfield there are numerous salvage companies in southern CA. If you get to Colorado, I 'll defiently hook you up!

evangilder · Apr 21, 2005

Chino also has a salvage yard.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 21, 2005

Chino, and don't forget the one at long Beach Airport. You also got Aviaiotn Warehouse out at El Mirage dry lake.

FLYBOYJ · May 5, 2005

OK folks here we go again! I got up close to an F4F, F6F, F8F, F4U, SBD and a P-51. I kept the photos large so bear with me. As far as wing skins are concerned, this is what I found...

The Zero, F4F and SBD carried the same thickness, although you could see the Zero had much less internal structure. lots of rivets on the SBD and F4F. The P-51, F4U and F8F were really thick skinned, the F4U had the thickest at the wing hinge (obviously) and it seemed the whole bottom wing structure was very thick. The best way to view this was at the trailing edge at the aileron.

If you walked on any of these, you're not going to damage anything unless you walk on the fabric control surfaces. The skin on the outside engine bay of the mustang was a bit thinner than the wings which would make be uncomfortable considering all the coolant and oil lines seen in the engine bay. Out of all of these if I had to be shot at in an airplane, I'd take the F4U. For the most part, you're not damaging the surfaces of these wings if you jump on them (with the exception on the Zero) although I'd think if you did that to these particular aircraft the owners would remove genitalia parts through your nose!

Anonymous · May 5, 2005

Wow those photos are huge.

Also, it's very hard to judge thickness on folded or mudded over plate joinings.

And, I'm skeptical about the Zero, it is too likely it was rebuilt post-war using thicker than original sheeting.

=S=

Lunatic

FLYBOYJ · May 5, 2005

I could tell you on the Corsair you're looking at up to .125. The Zero looked about .032 - .040. The Mustang about .075.

If rebuilt, I could tell you that the Zero would have to use close to the original thickness of sheet metal. After the restoration the FAA has to do their thing and before an airworthiness certificate is issued. The restorer will have to prove to an FAA inspector that what was used on the retoration was close if not the same material on the original structure.

Anonymous · May 5, 2005

FLYBOYJ said:
I could tell you on the Corsair you're looking at up to .125.
The Zero looked about .032 - .040. The Mustang about .075.

If rebuilt, I could tell you that the Zero would have to use close to the
original thickness of sheet metal. After the restoration the FAA has to do
their thing and before an airworthiness certificate is issued. The restorer
will have to prove to an FAA inspector that what was used on the
restoration was close if not the same material on the original structure.

Well, that is not always true. On the Corsair for instance, virtually all
flying planes have the wing fabric replaced with aluminum sheeting, and
usually tail surface fabric too for that matter. The historic fabric is
impossible to get - it was very expenensive and was soaked in a
fireproofing liquid that it turned out was a significant health hazard for the
crews working with it. Aluminum is much cheaper and much easier to
maintain. The main purpose of the fabric covering was to reduce
vulnerablity to enemy fire - civilian Corsairs don't expect to be taking any
hits so....

On the Zero, they'd be wanting assurances it was safe to fly - thicker
sheetmetal would not necessarily make it unsafe to fly as long as it was
balanced properly, it might even make the plane safer. The main reason
to do it would be to reduce maintance requirements.

=S=

Lunatic

evangilder · May 5, 2005

All of the aircraft in the CAF that had fabric control surfaces, still do. Alot of the Zero restoration (about 60%) ofr the Zero that is in the photos was done in russia. Thicker sheetmetal will make the airplane heavier and could have an effect on the flight characteristics.

FLYBOYJ · May 5, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
FLYBOYJ said:

I could tell you on the Corsair you're looking at up to .125. The Zero looked about .032 - .040. The Mustang about .075.

If rebuilt, I could tell you that the Zero would have to use close to the original thickness of sheet metal. After the restoration the FAA has to do their thing and before an airworthiness certificate is issued. The restorer will have to prove to an FAA inspector that what was used on the retoration was close if not the same material on the original structure.

Click to expand...

Well, that is not always true. On the Corsair for instance, virtually all flying planes have the wing fabric replaced with aluminum sheeting, and usually tail surface fabric too for that matter. The historic fabric is impossible to get - it was very expenensive and was soaked in a fireproofing liquid that it turned out was a significant health hazard for the crews working with it. Aluminum is much cheaper and much easier to maintain. The main purpose of the fabric covering was to reduce vulnerablity to enemy fire - civilian Corsairs don't expect to be taking any hits so....

On the Zero, they'd be wanting assurances it was safe to fly - thicker sheetmetal would not necessarily make it unsafe to fly as long as it was balanced properly, it might even make the plane safer. The main reason to do it would be to future reduce maintance requirements.

=S=

Lunatic

No - I disagree. I was involved with several restorations with the FAA and they it the same, period. If the control surface was fabric, you replaced it with fabric. If the Skin was .040 you replace it with .040. There's a thing called "approved data" and that's the data the manufacturer puts out in their maintenance manual. The FAA accepts this as gospel and without following these guidelines you're not getting an airworthiness certificate. When restoring a warbird, the Feds are very strict about this. To change it you need what you call a DER (Designated Engineering Representative) who will actually do the re-design. Restorers try to avoid these guys because they cost big bucks to hire.

Oh and the fabric on the Corsair - Irish Linen, doped on and held in place with sheet metal screws and lacetie, easily replaced by "Stits" an approved substitute that is ironed on then processed with dope replacement. Look at my jumbo photos (sorry) all those planes have fabric covered control surfaces.

Soren · May 5, 2005

Very nice pictures FLYBOYJ ! It is pretty obvious thw wings will sustain no damage from walking on them, wich i presume the instructor's at the place told you aswell.

evangilder · May 5, 2005

Still it kind of depends on the aircraft. We do have places clearly marked on the Zero where you are not supposed to put your feet. It might be okay if you are really light, but the Japanese writing on it says (in kanji) No Step. That could also be in an area that has little structure beneath and could cause it to dent. I don't think you would actually go through.

FLYBOYJ · May 5, 2005

Soren said:
Very nice pictures FLYBOYJ ! It is pretty obvious thw wings will sustain no damage from walking on them, wich i presume the instructor's at the place told you aswell.

Thanks!

OH YEA

FLYBOYJ · May 5, 2005

evangilder said:
Still it kind of depends on the aircraft. We do have places clearly marked on the Zero where you are not supposed to put your feet. It might be okay if you are really light, but the Japanese writing on it says (in kanji) No Step. That could also be in an area that has little structure beneath and could cause it to dent. I don't think you would actually go through.

Yep, and considering that your Museum's Zero is "priceless" to me any dent is about $25K!!!!

evangilder · May 5, 2005

Yep, it would be at least that much in dental work. If you dent the plane, the crew chief (or the pilot) would likely kick your teeth in!

Anonymous · May 5, 2005

FlyBoyJ,

Somewhere on the Dupont website is (or there was) a section concerning the fabric covering for the wings of the Corsair, which was a synthetic fabric which would not rip or tear (a for-runner of Tyvex). It was soaked in another Dupont chemical which it turned out was very harsh on the skin and lungs of the flight crews, in order to make it virtually fireproof. It had to be replaced frequently because it did have a tendancy to stretch.

This fabric was used on the wings to make them less susceptable to damage. I don't know if it was used on the other surfaces or not.

As I said before, the wings of all flying corsairs today use duraluminum, not fabric of any kind - so obviously the FAA is not quite so strict as you claim. Modifications can get approval.

=S=

Lunatic

FLYBOYJ · May 5, 2005

evangilder said:
Yep, it would be at least that much in dental work. If you dent the plane, the crew chief (or the pilot) would likely kick your teeth in!

Oh yea - when someone uninvited goes near my jets I spool up like a top!

By the way, forgot to tell you, you guys did a great job on your birds! The Zero, Hellcat and Bearcat stole the show as far as restored WW2 aircraft. Seeing Semential Journey was cool, but seeing those 3 aircraft fly in formation was someting else!!

evangilder · May 6, 2005

They'll be happy to hear that. 8) We do have a great group of guys down there.

evangilder · May 6, 2005

All Corsairs have duraluminum elevators? Care to make a wager on that one?

Anonymous · May 6, 2005

evangilder said:
All Corsairs have duraluminum elevators? Care to make a wager on that one?

I didn't say that. I said all flying Corsairs have duraluminum in place of the fabric on the wings. I'm unsure about the elevators and rudder, they could well be canvas - the areas are much smaller and thus less subject to stretching issues.

evangilder · May 6, 2005

Okay, I misunderstood. I wasn't aware that late model Corsairs had any fabric in the wings, aside from the elevators and the rudder. I always consider the elevators part of the wing.

Which fighters were "thick skinned?"

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