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How many Hurricanes and Typhoons will you do without? Would you have enough Merlin 61s in 1942 to actually get any more Spitfires?
It just isn't as simple as that, the Spitfires wing was thinner than the Mustangs but had higher drag at most speeds. The Hurricanes inward closing undercarriage was contained in a box type structure which went quite a distance along the wing this contained the fuel tanks, as SR said the Ailerons go close to the end of the wing.
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The Mustang wing had lower drag despite being thicker than the Spitfire, nothing to do with the elliptical form its to do with the aerofoil profile and the onset of turbulent flow. The Spitfires wasn't bad, just the Mustangs was better up to Mach 0.85. The next issue was cooling drag and the Mustangs set up was better, then comes details like wind screen uncovered U/C and the general shape and fit of panels.I've always been lead to believe the elliptical wing was a clean design, it was the cumulative drag from the upright windscreen, R/T antenna, tail wheel, uncovered landing gear and cannon barrels that was the problem.
Until you get enough twin stage merlins to satisfy all Supermarine factories and your new Hawker spitfire factory it doesn't make one extra aircraft but you lose all your Hurricanes and Typhoons, the Spitfire Mk VIII was superior to the Typhoon in some but not all respects. There were 4 sites making Merlins in UK in WW2 when would you start building another and why? Why do you think the UK approached Packard?I'd loose enough to guarantee the pilot's went to war with the best planes I could supply, which from 1941 is not the Hurricane. The engine problem is the biggest issue, what automotive makers in Britain could be used as a satellite factory to Roll's, Rover/Austin/AC Ace/SS(Jaguar)?.
Until you get enough twin stage merlins to satisfy all Supermarine factories and your new Hawker spitfire factory it doesn't make one extra aircraft but you lose all your Hurricanes and Typhoons, the Spitfire Mk VIII was superior to the Typhoon in some but not all respects. There were 4 sites making Merlins in UK in WW2 when would you start building another and why? Why do you think the UK approached Packard?
Camm and his team were a bit dull thts why they went on to the Sea Fury Hunter Harrier etc.I love how some people think the faery godmother would flick her magic wand and poof, a new Hurricane.
I've always been lead to believe the elliptical wing was a clean design, it was the cumulative drag from the upright windscreen, R/T antenna, tail wheel, uncovered landing gear and cannon barrels that was the problem.
It is this kind of fixation on speed that got some designs in trouble
Given the timing, the only worthwhile fixes for the Hurricane would have to be of the "quick and dirty" variety, and it's issues weren't given to that.the Tornado (basically a Typhoon wing, landing gear and fuselage from the cockpit back) flew on Oct 6th 1939 about 3 1/2 months before the Typhoon which helps put the development schedule into perspective vs improving the Hurricane.
Until you get enough twin stage merlins to satisfy all Supermarine factories and your new Hawker spitfire factory it doesn't make one extra aircraft but you lose all your Hurricanes and Typhoons, the Spitfire Mk VIII was superior to the Typhoon in some but not all respects. There were 4 sites making Merlins in UK in WW2 when would you start building another and why? Why do you think the UK approached Packard?
No way, Jose. You can have the speed OR you can have the maneuverability, pick one. If you chop and thin the wings, you're going to sacrifice maneuverability on the altar of speed. That fat, high lift wing and large ailerons, coupled with a light weight are what give you your maneuverability. That fat airfoil is essentially a low speed biplane-era feature, and could be replaced with a thinner higher speed section, but at the cost of greater structural weight and longer runway requirements. Your turn and burn fighter would likely turn into a boom and zoom machine.
Cheers,
Wes
If its a better fighter than the Typhoon it is on par with a Tempest. Are you seriously suggesting that a few mods to the Hurricane, unnoticed until today, would have the Hurricane on par with a Tempest? I think some anti Typhoon propaganda may have led you astray, the Typhoon was the only plane that could chase down FW190 tip and run raiders, Spitfires couldn't that is why the Typhoon was rushed to service, so I don't think any type of souped up or cut down Hurricane would either. You cant add up reductions in drag to produce super performance. The Spitfire was about 30MPH slower than the Mustang with the same engine, this was due to better wing design, better cooling design and better fit/finish. To uprate a Spitfire to be the same as a Mustang needs a completely new plane called a Mustang and probably different production methods and equipment, it is the same only more so with a Hurricane. In any case the RAF had Mustangs first with Allison and then with Rolls Royce engines.
The Mustang wing had lower drag despite being thicker than the Spitfire, nothing to do with the elliptical form its to do with the aerofoil profile and the onset of turbulent flow. The Spitfires wasn't bad, just the Mustangs was better up to Mach 0.85. The next issue was cooling drag and the Mustangs set up was better, then comes details like wind screen uncovered U/C and the general shape and fit of panels.
I love how some people think the faery godmother would flick her magic wand and poof, a new Hurricane.
For all the wing chopper advocates please look at the Spitfire again.
Due to it's construction (the original tips being pieces that bolted on to the rest of the wing) it was very easy to both cut the wingspan and extend it.
Due to it's shape (the elliptical or semi elliptical shape) the wing area actually didn't change all that much. cutting the wingspan 4 feet only cut 11 sq ft of wing area (about 4.5%) and when the extended tips were bolted on (3ft 4 in increase in span) there is only about 2.75% increase in area. The changes in climb and altitude performance were not due to the change in wing area alone but the change in aspect ratio of the wing. Aspect ratio has an effect on the overall efficiency of the wing. The higher the aspect ratio the more "lift" per sq ft of wing area in simplistic terms. It may not be a large percentage change but it does exist and helps explain some of the differences in performance.
Cutting the wing of the Hurricane with it's blunter wing tips means a bit more square footage lost compared to the Spitfire (perhaps 1.5-2 sq ft?) and it means a loss of aspect ratio (although not quite the same as the Spit due to the longer wing to begin with.)
Speed gained or lost is proportional to the speed of the airplane since you are changing the drag, a change of 5mph on a 370mph airplane is not going to give you 5mph on a 340mph airplane. the drag at 370mph is about 18% higher than the drag at 340mph. Maybe you get 4mph?
And what do you loose? The Hurricane already did not perform as well as the Spitfire at high altitudes when they both had the same engine. SO you want to gain a little speed at the cost of climb and operational ceiling? Itis this kind of fixation on speed that got some designs in trouble when overall performance (including landing and take off) were considered.
As far as "just" moving the ailerons? that means you either make the flaps smaller (OK for landing, they didn't provide much lift, they were speed brakes) or you change the type of flap or make them larger by moving the hinge point forward and at this point the cheap and easy modification is becoming rather more complicated and expensive by the moment.
I would also like to correct Pat202 a bit. He was right about when the TYphoon first flew but the Tornado (basically a Typhoon wing, landing gear and fuselage from the cockpit back) flew on Oct 6th 1939 about 3 1/2 months before the Typhoon which helps put the development schedule into perspective vs improving the Hurricane.
In mid 1942 the RAF was receiving the Mustang Mk1 the Spitfire IX and the Typhoon, no souped up Hurricane was going to be catching a V1.I was kind of kidding, but semi-serious. The Mustang may have been 30 mph faster but I'd still rather be in a Spitfire IX or XIV if I was in a fight with a skilled Bf 109 pilot.
If you really could have a faster rolling, faster diving, 30 mph faster Hurricane, vs. the early stages, still temperamental Typhoon, you might rather have 1,000 of the former handy as a military leader while they still work out the bugs on the latter (and they will still be in England to tackle the V-1s and the tip and run raiders)... the Typhoon still has more potential, and the Tempest, when they get around to making it, will be far beyond the potential of any Hurricane (or P-40). But in the mean time, in say mid 1942, those fast "Hurricane IXs" would be nice to have...
True, but that lift came at the cost of high induced drag, due to the fat, low speed biplane-era airfoil section. That blunt-tipped straight taper wing stands to lose more area in a clip job than does a pointier tipped wing such as Spit or Zero, and more importantly, more loss in aspect ratio, which counts heavily in high G maneuvering. Your L/D at high AOA and G will be negatively impacted, leading to more energy bleed in ACM. Also, you're going to sacrifice some aileron or some flap with attendant impact on roll rate or landing performance.lets keep in mind the Hurricane had a lot of lift to 'burn
Yes and yes. The Mustang's "laminar" airfoil gave it lower drag for equivalent lift at cruising AOAs and speeds, but I think you'll find that advantage dwindling at higher AOA and G load. And it was definitely heavier, which never helps.The Mustang's wing was 'cleaner' but also lower lift I think right? or is it just that the Mustang was so much heavier?
A bunch! Skilled wood and dope workers don't adapt readily to sheet metal work, if one of my classmates at mech school was any example. He was a well to do entrepreneur and skilled wood worker who chose to put his custom furniture and boat building shop on hold and take up aircraft work as a lark. He was no stranger to aircraft, having built a homebuilt plane that was very Hurricane-like in its construction techniques. (A Spezio Tuholer, for you inquisitive types) He wanted to get his A&P license so he could work on certificated aircraft. Anyway, long story short, he found his woodworking habits hard to shake and tinbending to be a mind bending experience. Now imagine an entire factory of people like him. They're all craftsmanlike people, and they will eventually get there, but it won't be quick or easy.But then the question would be, how many aircraft do you miss out on by changing the production facility from one that produces steel tube frame, wood and dope aircraft (except the wings) to one that makes an all metal stressed skin construction?
Who said anything even remotely resembling" poof a new Hurricane" obviously adding a more powerful two stage Merlin and maybe a slightly thinner wing are going to be some work but certainly nowhere near as much as designing, testing, and getting into service a whole new design. And then the risk that maybe that new design doesn't work out so well and all that efort is for nothing.I love how some people think the faery godmother would flick her magic wand and poof, a new Hurricane.