Which is the better fighter, P-40F or Typhoon?

[swampyankee]

The 110 failed in the BoB because it was not used in its intended role.
/QUOTE]

I think one can argue that the Me110's "intended role" didn't exist except in the minds of some Luftwaffe officers and not in reality. Of course, one could say that the P-38 never operated in its intended role, either.

 

[Glider]

It's often forgotten that the Me110 was good as its primary role at the start of the war. It only came unstuck when fighting the BOB, but before then it was a formidable aircraft, far more effective than the 109D which was its single engine equivalent.

 

[Schweik]

It was feared in the Battle of France, but once it's speed fell below competitive level, it was a little too much of a sitting duck.

I'm not sure everyone realized until the war was well underway how hard it was to make a big plane with a wide wingspan go really fast. Very few designs achieved what the Mosquito did.

 

[Mad Dog]

Maybe they were doing most of the aerial fighting

The USAAF's P-38s and Allison-engine P-51s were doing most of the air-fighting over the China-Burma front as they had the range required to get down to such target areas as the Rangoon oilfields. The Japanese kept their best fighters in the theatre, the Ki-44 "Tojos", for defending Rangoon. The Hurricanes and Spitfires didn't have the range to go looking for the Japanese or for attacking Japanese airfields, so they switched the Hurricanes to ground-attack over Imphal and the Arakan. The RAF had Spitfires by then for the interceptor role, and even P-47s for the long-range role (escorting RAF and USAAF Liberators to bomb the mentioned oilfields, docks and railway yards in Rangoon). The RAF's call for long-range fighters was so desperate from the Burma theatre that plans for RAF P-47 wings in Europe and the Med were scrapped and all RAF P-47s went to the Far East (apart from a few kept with a conversion unit in Egypt). The ETO units later got Mustangs instead. Air combat became so rare for the RAF units in Burma that even the Spitfires were used for strafing the Japanese supply lines. With no real driver to upgrade the Hurricanes there was no call for individual exhaust stacks or the like, it was more important to have a reliable plane with common components for easier supply and maintenance. In 1944 and 1945 the biggest threat to the Hurricanes in the Far east was the same as to Typhoons in Europe - AAA fire at low levels.

 

[Mad Dog]

What I don't get about the Hurricane is why didn't they just redesign the wing a little bit?.

That's because Sydney Camm was busy developing more modern replacements with a targeted airspeed of 400mph from early 1937. Hurricane production started in 1937, and Camm presented his two preliminary designs for the Hurricane's replacement in July 1937. His reasoning was that the Hurricane was pretty much old tech - the rear fuselage was wooden frames screwed to a metal space-tube frame and covered with linen right through until the end of production. He saw spending time and resources on the Hurricane as pretty much wasted, and instead concentrated on new, all-metal, monocoque-structured fighters. The first prototype of the Hurricane's replacement was flying in February 1940. You might have heard of it, it was called the Typhoon.....

 

[Mad Dog]

All we need is an interim variant that can take on the Hayabusa or Reisen and come out on top.

Why bother when you already have the Spitfire VIII? The reason Hawker kept on making the Hurricane pretty much unchanged was because the Air Ministry placed truly massive orders in 1939, 1940 and 1941. They did the same with the Typhoon, to such an extent that the last production batch were built on one side of the Glosters site, were signed off as accepted by the Air Ministry, then wheeled across the site to be broken up for spares. They never flew, not even a test flight, but they had to be assembled for the contract to be completed.
One of the reasons was the contracts signed with Hawker made it just about impossible for the Air Ministry to cancel the orders, and that was the fault of a guy called Lord Beaverbrook. Lord Beaverbrook (or Max Aitken as he was then at the time) was a newspaper magnate who had a knack for managing mechanised production, but zero practical knowledge of what was actually needed by the RAF. Churchill hired him as the Minister of Aircraft Production in 1940 with one goal - boost the number of aircraft produced. And Beaverbrook was very good at organsing production efficiently. In the panic of 1940 he helped win the Battle of Britain by ensuring the RAF had a increasing number of fighters available whilst the Luftwaffe had a declining number. But he had the effect of boosting the production of a lot of planes which should have been on the way out, such as the Hurricane I, which were still being made in their hundreds on unfinished orders months after the Hurricane II was in service! IIRC, Hurricane Is were still being delivered to the RAF in late 1941 and Hurricane XIIs were being manufactured in Canada well into 1943! The Bristol Blenheim is another example, kept in production too long because Bristol had massive orders to fill.

 

[Mad Dog]

Even on the Spitfire they made the clipped wing variant, apparently for the Med.

The first clipped Spitfire wing was tried on the MkIII, which did not go into production, but was put into service in late 1942 in the ETO with the LFVb in an attempt to produce better speed and roll rate for combat with the FW190. Nothing to do with the Med.

 

[Mad Dog]

But was this due to issues fighting over the Channel or with tip and run raids, or also in the Med? And did the Bf 109F have anything to do with it?

Nothing to do with the Med and nothing to do with the Bf109F. It was the high altitude performance of the Bf109F during sweeps over France that caused the RAF problems, not its low-level ability. Clipping the wings was intended to increase the speed and roll-rate of the MkV at low altitude in response to the FW190. The MkV could deal with the Bf109F at medium and low altitudes.

 

[Mad Dog]

It occurs to me the Spit V with clipped wings would be quite similar in many respects to a P-40F.....

Empty weight of the Spitfire Vc Trop was 5048-5065Lb, and 6220-6495Lb fully loaded, depending on the batch and fittings. The P-40F was 6590Lb empty and 8500Lb at normal load. The Hurri IIb Trop, 5675Lb empty, 7080Lb loaded, even with the weight of twelve Browning .303s, could still reach 20,000ft in nine minutes dead. A Spitfire Vc Trop (Merlin 45) could do it in only 7.3 minutes and the clipped Spitfire Vb was usually lighter than a Vc when loaded, so probably a whisker faster still. The P-40F took 11.2 minutes with a virtually identical engine to the Hurricane. The P-40F was simply grossly overweight, hence why it was outclimbed by even the Hurricane IIb.

 

[Mad Dog]

It's often forgotten that the Me110 was good as its primary role at the start of the war. It only came unstuck when fighting the BOB, but before then it was a formidable aircraft, far more effective than the 109D which was its single engine equivalent.

The 110 only came unstuck in the BoB when it was ordered to fly as close escort to the bombers. That sacrificed the advantages of speed and height they used for their boom'n'zoom tactics. When allowed to roam freely on sweeps, they were deadly throughout the Battle. The close escort problem effected the 109s as well, it was just worse for the Bf110s. The next biggest problem for the 110 was production lagged loss rate, then it was cut because Messerschmitt said the ME210 was going to be great, only it wasn't, by which time the frontline 110 fleet was down to 60 aircraft!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

We really need to get rid of the "dumb rating" that some people are constantly using. It serves no purpose other than stoking flames.

It really is like a Kindergarten around here. And no Mad Dog this time I am not referring to you.

 

[Mad Dog]

The problem with the Hurricane vs Ju 88 scenario was that once the Ju 88 had dropped its bombs it was nigh impossible to catch. A Ju 88 did 326 mph clean and could evade a Hurricane in a dive, the Hurricane only being capable of 410 mph.

But the Hurricanes over Malta, both MkIs and MkIIs, shot down plenty of Ju88s. Their problem was not catching the Ju88s, it was getting past the large number of Bf109F escorts to be able to get a shot at the Ju88s. Sea Hurricanes on the Operation Pedestal run shot down Ju88s, and they were effectively Hurricane Is with Merlin IIIs and the 4-cannon IIc wing! Speed was not the issue.

Even the Seafire IIc couldn't catch a Ju 88.....

The landing at Salerno relied on Seafires, and the Germans were well-aware of their capabilities, only sending their Ju88s in at night. Not sure where you got the idea a Seafire couldn't catch a Ju88.

 

[michael rauls]

Going back a couple of posts I've always felt it was to bad they didn't upgrade the Hurricane. From what I've read it was really stable and new pilots could master it fairly quickly. Those are valuable characteristics in wartime or anytime for that matter.
If they just kept cramming more power into it seems like they would end up with something that performed kida like the F6f, maybe no one outstanding performance area but pretty good at everything and those always desirable docile handling characteristics.
Maybe it wasn't practical as it would take away from newer types but doesn't seem like adding more horsepower as it became available would take to much redesign effort.

 

[Shortround6]

Maybe it wasn't practical as it would take away from newer types but doesn't seem like adding more horsepower as it became available would take to much redesign effort.

More HP at what altitude?

Some of the MK IVs got Merlin 27 engines which were rated at 1635hp at 2250ft in low gear and 1510hp at 9250ft in high gear using 18lbs of boost. (66in or so). That is about as good as it got for a single stage Merlin using 100/130 fuel. If you want more HP higher up you need a two stage supercharger and that is going to require at least some redesign.

 

[michael rauls]

More HP at what altitude?

Some of the MK IVs got Merlin 27 engines which were rated at 1635hp at 2250ft in low gear and 1510hp at 9250ft in high gear using 18lbs of boost. (66in or so). That is about as good as it got for a single stage Merlin using 100/130 fuel. If you want more HP higher up you need a two stage supercharger and that is going to require at least some redesign.

Ya that's what I was thinking. I know it would take take some redesign but nowhere near a whole new aircraft.......I think? And the Hurricane had such good qualities. If it were practical I suppose they would have done it but it seems like a good idea to me............Maybee thats why im not in charge of fighter design
Those Hurricanes with the 1635hp, you don't happen to know the speed and climb do you?

 

[Mad Dog]

….Beaufighter and Bf 110 were obsolete even as night fighters in my opinion by that time....

Why? The ME110 was an effective night-fighter right up until VE-Day, simply because the majority of its targets were RAF bombers cruising at less than 200mph. IIRC, the leading Luftwaffe night-fighter ace, Heinz-Wolfgang Schnaufer, scored all of his 121 victories in Bf110s at night. And I know at least the USAAF's 417th Squadron were still flying Beaufighters as night-fighters as late as April 1945 over Germany.

The Me 210 and 410 …. excelled as night-intruders bomber killers so long as they had protection

What? They didn't need escorts at night. And they very rarely were allowed to operate as intruders because Hitler preferred to have his night-fighters shooting down RAF night-bombers over Germany so the German public could see it happening. Please go read up on Operation Gisela.

.....A-20..... not fast enough to be a good night fighter....

Please identify the Axis bomber you think was able to outrun and A-20/Havoc? An Heinkel 177 in a dive, maybe, but the more common Ju88, Ju188, Dornier 217 and He111 were pretty easy prey for the Havoc II. The Italians certainly never had a bomber that could outrun a Havoc II, nor the Japanese. Sure, there were better alternatives which replaced the A-20/Havoc, such as the Mosquito, but that doesn't mean the A-20 was useless as a night-fighter, even by 1945.

.....Beaufighter was too slow to fly and fight much over Continental Europe by 1943....

See 417th above, then read more widely.

 

[wuzak]

Ya that's what I was thinking. I know it would take take some redesign but nowhere near a whole new aircraft.......I think? And the Hurricane had such good qualities. If it were practical I suppose they would have done it but it seems like a good idea to me............Maybee thats why im not in charge of fighter design
Those Hurricanes with the 1635hp, you don't happen to know the speed and climb do you?

With a small number of 2 stage Merlins, at least initially, you have to be really picky as to what aircraft you put them in.

Note that W4050, the prototype Mosquito, was fitted with Merlin 61s around mid 1942, but the B.IX and PR.IX didn't go into production until mid 1943.

I don't see what point there would have been putting the 2 stage Merlin into the Hurricane to keep it vaguely competitive, especially when that takes effort away from newer types (Typhoon and Tempest) and engines for more useful aircraft (Spitfire and Mosquito).

 

[wuzak]

Empty weight of the Spitfire Vc Trop was 5048-5065Lb, and 6220-6495Lb fully loaded, depending on the batch and fittings. The P-40F was 6590Lb empty and 8500Lb at normal load. The Hurri IIb Trop, 5675Lb empty, 7080Lb loaded, even with the weight of twelve Browning .303s, could still reach 20,000ft in nine minutes dead. A Spitfire Vc Trop (Merlin 45) could do it in only 7.3 minutes and the clipped Spitfire Vb was usually lighter than a Vc when loaded, so probably a whisker faster still. The P-40F took 11.2 minutes with a virtually identical engine to the Hurricane. The P-40F was simply grossly overweight, hence why it was outclimbed by even the Hurricane IIb.

The clipped wing Spitfires not only lost altitude performance, they also lost climb performance.

However, the LF.V could probably have out-climbed the regular V/trop at low levels because of the additional boost from its 45M or 50M Merlin.

 

[michael rauls]

With a small number of 2 stage Merlins, at least initially, you have to be really picky as to what aircraft you put them in.

Note that W4050, the prototype Mosquito, was fitted with Merlin 61s around mid 1942, but the B.IX and PR.IX didn't go into production until mid 1943.

I don't see what point there would have been putting the 2 stage Merlin into the Hurricane to keep it vaguely competitive, especially when that takes effort away from newer types (Typhoon and Tempest) and engines for more useful aircraft (Spitfire and Mosquito).

I guess that would be the reason why not, not enough of the two stage Merlins to go around. That's to bad. Didn't the Typhoon have a different engine though? Oh well, regardless I guess there were higher priorities for the limited number of Merlins to be had.

 

[Mad Dog]

Those Hurricanes with the 1635hp, you don't happen to know the speed and climb do you?

Actually, the Hurri IVs got the Merlin XX, boosted to the same limits as the Hurri II. All the Merlin 27s were used for Mosquitos. The IV was a dedicated ground-attack version, so it also got lots of heavy armour plate, and ended up slower than the IIc.