Which is the better fighter, P-40F or Typhoon? (1 Viewer)

[pbehn]

Yeah the Beaufighter definitely seemed to be a Ju 88 "antidote" in the Med, at least when they were operating at low enough altitude. Shores points it out as one of the emerging surprises from his data, those Beaufighters were death-dealing machines.

?

The Beaufighter was a good plane with the great misfortune to be replaced in most things by the Mosquito.

 

[Schweik]

Well yes for night fighting and intruder bombing but not so much for Maritime, at least so far as I know. In the Med the Beaus still seem to be in the game well into 1944.

 

[pbehn]

Well yes for night fighting and intruder bombing but not so much for Maritime, at least so far as I know. In the Med the Beaus still seem to be in the game well into 1944.

The Mosquito was used in maritime strike against ships trawlers and subs in the North Sea as well as other A/C.

 

[Simon Thomas]

from wiki "In March 1940, engineers were assigned to investigate the new low–drag laminar flow wing developed by NACA in the United States, which had been used in the new North American P-51 Mustang.

What I find interesting about this, is that the British Purchasing Commission agreed in April to let North American to build a new fighter rather than make the P-40. How can the Tempest use a laminar flow wing design from the Mustang if it preceded the Mustang?

 

[Shortround6]

Another thing that gets passed over a lot, and I mean a LOT, is that no matter what kind of gee-whiz, super-duper, Flash Gordon aircraft you can come up with in the 1930s or even 1940-41, it has to operate from the vast majority of existing fighter and bomber bases. For the British that meant around 500yds of grass, and sometimes that was 500yds to the trees, not a low fence. Some bases were bigger but this size was so common that the specification that lead to the Manchester listed a catapult launch to get out of some of these small airfields.
High lift devices were in their infancy (and there was no internet to spread the word For the Americans the P-26 was the first Army aircraft to use flaps and the first version built didn't have them. they were added part way through the production run and retrofitted to existing aircraft. This was about 1934? The Gloster Gladiator was either the first British military plane (or first fighter?) fitted with flaps. The US went from those simple split flaps

to the double slotted fowler flaps of the A-26

in about eight years.

The Data sheet for the Typhoon IB shows it taking off and clearing a 50 ft obstacle in 740yds at 11,400lbs

Many of these planes took a longer distance to land than to take off.

 

[pbehn]

What I find interesting about this, is that the British Purchasing Commission agreed in April to let North American to build a new fighter rather than make the P-40. How can the Tempest use a laminar flow wing design from the Mustang if it preceded the Mustang?

The Tempest didn't precede the Mustang the Typhoon/Tornado (Vulture engine) did. It is a mistake to say wing design of the Mustang it was the aerofoil profiles that are important. The Mosquito used RAF profiles which were more of a laminar flow type but not as good as the Mustang's . In fact none are actually truly laminar flow, just some better than others at preserving smooth flow for longer over the wing.

 

[wuzak]

So they painted fake nose cone markings to make it look like a bomber? I love it

Why not, the RAF painted yellow leading edges on unarmed bomber Mosquitoes, just like they had for armed Spitfires and Hurricanes.

 

[pbehn]

Another thing that gets passed over a lot, and I mean a LOT, is that no matter what kind of gee-whiz, super-duper, Flash Gordon aircraft you can come up with in the 1930s or even 1940-41, it has to operate from the vast majority of existing fighter and bomber bases. For the British that meant around 500yds of grass, and sometimes that was 500yds to the trees, not a low fence.

Even during the BoB at least one squadron of Gladiators was used in south West England because they couldn't find a landing strip big enough.

 

[wuzak]

What I find interesting about this, is that the British Purchasing Commission agreed in April to let North American to build a new fighter rather than make the P-40. How can the Tempest use a laminar flow wing design from the Mustang if it preceded the Mustang?

If you read what pbehn said, Hawkers started to investigate laminar flow aerofoils that had been developed from NACA. The P-51 had a wing profile based on the same research, but I think the profile was different to that used in the Tempest.

Somebody may be able to confirm.

 

[pbehn]

If you read what pbehn said, Hawkers started to investigate laminar flow aerofoils that had been developed from NACA. The P-51 had a wing profile based on the same research, but I think the profile was different to that used in the Tempest.

Somebody may be able to confirm.

Wiki says this about the Tempest, as you say it was the change in profile not a copy of a Mustang wing . "A laminar flow wing adopted for the Tempest series had a maximum thickness-to-chord ratio of 14.5 per cent at the root, tapering to 10 per cent at the tip.[5][8] The maximum thickness of the Tempest wing was set further back at 37.5 per cent of the chord versus 30 per cent for the Typhoon's wing, reducing the thickness of the wing root by five inches on the new design.[5][8]"

 

[pbehn]

Why not, the RAF painted yellow leading edges on unarmed bomber Mosquitoes, just like they had for armed Spitfires and Hurricanes.

I think the idea was not so much that it looked like a bomber but that it didn't look like what it was, a long range fighter.

 

[wuzak]

I think the idea was not so much that it looked like a bomber but that it didn't look like what it was, a long range fighter.

Yes, and with the Mosquito it was to suggest to the Luftwaffe that it was armed, when it was not.

Just another example of attempted deception.

 

[Greyman]

I thought the yellow leading edges were for the benefit of Allied AA crews.

 

[wuzak]

I thought the yellow leading edges were for the benefit of Allied AA crews.

It seems that you are correct - the yellow is for identification, but not just for AA crews.

After a quick google search it seems that they were only applied to fighters.

Taken from official R.A.F. sources for verbatim.

From: Fighter Command.

Operational experience in this Command has proved the necessity for a complete change in colour scheme for Day Fighters and following camouflage scheme has been approved by Air Ministry (D.O.R.)

(i) Upper surfaces (A) present dark green is to remain untouched (B) dark earth is to be replaced by a colour obtained by mixing seven parts of sea grey medium and one part of cellon night.

(ii) Under surfaces are to be finished with sea grey medium.

(iii) Spinner to be Sky Type �S�.

(iv) Squadron and aircraft identification letters are to be painted to standard size in Sky Type �S�.

(v) An 18 inch wide vertical band of Sky Type �S� is retained around the fuselage immediately forward of the tail unit.

(vi) Leading edges are to have a yellow strip applied on both wings from the wing tip to half way along wing.

(vii) Standard nation markings are retained.

2. The change is commencing on 15 August 1941 with Nos.10,11, and 12 Groups.

3. The remaining groups will change over in the following order of priority as supplies of dope become available: 13,14,9,82 and 81 Groups.

RAFCommands Archive :: Fighter Aircraft- Yellow Leading Edges on wings.

 

[GrauGeist]

Well the Fw 190s specifically modified to attack bombers were vulnerable to fighters.

Also a lot of obsolete planes like Bf 110, Ju 88, Me 210, Me 410, Do 217 etc. became useful, at least for a while, as heavy bomber killers, sometimes long after they had become obsolete as front line fighters or bombers.

Define "Obsolete".
The Ju88 remained an effective (and exceptionally versatile) aircraft through the war's end.
The Me410 still inflicted losses on the Allied bombers and so on.

The Fw190A-8s accounted for a considerable amount of Allied bomber losses but were still able to turn and fight if needed. They were up-gunned and up-armored, but they were not helpless if caught outside of their Bf109 top-cover.

And here's an "obsolete" Me410B-2/U4 making an attack on a B-17G of the 388th BG...fortunately, the Bk.5's round passed harmelessly through the outer portion of the B-17's wing. It could have been much worse...

 

[Shortround6]

Also a lot of obsolete planes like Bf 110, Ju 88, Me 210, Me 410, Do 217 etc. became useful, at least for a while, as heavy bomber killers, sometimes long after they had become obsolete as front line fighters or bombers.

None of those planes had been designed or built as front line fighters. Except, perhaps, the Bf 110 but it was never intended to dog fight single seat, single engine fighters either.

You could take a fast bomber and use it as a bomber destroyer against unescorted bombers. It doesn't mean the original bomber version is obsolete. You can stuff radar in the fast bomber and use it as a night fighter, still doesn't mean the plane is obsolete as a fast bomber.

On the Allied side and disregarding the Mosquito you can use the A-20 as an example, used as a night fighter in early 1941, it was still being used as bomber in 1944 or later.

for the Germans it wasn't so much a question of the bombers being obsolete or obsolescent as it was their priorities/needs had changed. The usefulness of small numbers of fast bombers (or single planes) doing tip and run raids against England vs trying to stop the Allied day and night raids that used hundreds of bombers.
Remember that the Germans (or any defender) didn't need to shoot down every plane on a raid, if they can shoot down 10% or a bit less per raid the attacks will stop in fairly short order.

A light or fast medium bomber has a performance advantage over slower mediums and most heavy bombers. Sticking a heavy gun battery in them was a quick and easy way to get an effective, even if not optimum aircraft into service quickly. It has little to do with the usefulness of the original bomber version as a bomber.

 

[Schweik]

Well I think maybe y'all are missing my (and Kevin J's) point about obsolescence. In an attempt at good faith I will try to explain.

I would say that by 1944 aircraft such as the A-20, Beaufighter, Bf-110, Ju 88, Ju 188, Do 217, Me 210 and even the Me 410 were all obsolete in their main original and design purpose as daytime front-line fighters or bombers. A-20, Beaufighter and Bf 110 were obsolete even as night fighters in my opinion by that time.

The reason, in a nutshell, was enemy fighters and flak had improved sufficiently that a ~ 320 mph aircraft just wasn't safe on the battlefield any more. The P-51, P-38, P-47, Typhoon, Spit IX and later marks, Fw 190, and late model Bf 109, and the various late war Soviet fighters made flying around over Europe in any aircraft that flew less than probably 350 mph during the day (depending on cruise speed, range, altitude etc.) increasingly a death sentence. The Mosquito, late model Bf 110G etc. and (however rare) He 219 made it quite dangerous at night.

• But the Beaufighter lived on quite successfully as a torpedo bomber / maritime interdiction / maritime fighter aircraft. Very successfully as it turns out from the records.
• The Ju 88 was somewhat disappointing as a daytime bomber in the BoB but worked out well in Maritime raids in the North and Baltic Sea, in the Bay of Biscay and in the Med, as a tactical / dive bomber in Russia and the Med (up to ~ mid 1943) and for a while as a night fighter, and in other roles. Including as a heavy maritime fighter I'm just learning!
• the Bf 110 failed as a day fighter but found a niche as a night fighter and, with sufficient fighter protection, a heavy fighter to use against bombers.
• The Do 217 found a useful role as a missile carrier in maritime operations, and as a heavy fighter (if sufficiently protected).
• The Me 210 and 410, though comparatively fast, did not work out as daytime fighters but excelled as night-intruders bomber killers so long as they had protection. If they didn't have fighter cover they got hacked down.

Some others didn't really find a niche by the time they became obsolete. A-20 was a great bomber up to mid 1943 but I think after that point it was just too vulnerable during the day and though it still had some value as a night-intruder it was not fast enough to be a good night fighter. Arguably it was still useful in the Pacific as a strafer and skip-bomber. This is also IMO why the P-40 did in fact become obsolete some time in 1944, too many fighters were hitting the ~400 mph mark and it was just left behind in speed.

But for most of the aircraft listed above, they did find another niche where they could still be useful. So obsolescence in one role leads to continued valuable service in another. Beaufighter was too slow to fly and fight much over Continental Europe by 1943 (with a few outstanding exceptions like dropping that flag on the Arc de Triumph in late 1942) but in the Pacific or Burma it was still a contender. Same for the P-40 which could still operate as a fighter-bomber in Italy and as a fighter or fighter bomber in the Pacific and CBI.

 

[Schweik]

Found an interesting and dramatic account of Ju 88Cs vs a B-24 (PB4Y) over the Bay of Biscay

 

[Milosh]

The 110 failed in the BoB because it was not used in its intended role.

The 210 had other issues.

The Me410A-1 was a light bomber. Initially, three Umrüst-Bausätze (factory conversion kits) were available, U1 contained a palette of cameras for the photo-reconnaissance role, U2 two 20 mm MG 151/20 cannon with 250 rpg for the heavy fighter use, and U4 used the 50 mm (2 in) Bordkanone series weapon, the BK-5 cannon with 22 rounds (21 rounds to load and 1 extra round already loaded into the cannon), to turn either an Me 410A or B-series aircraft into a dedicated bomber destroyer

 

[Schweik]

The gist of this line of reasoning is that finding the role that fit in the real world (and in spite of enemy actions and kit) was part of what determined if a combat aircraft could be of use in the war. The intended or design use often didn't work out precisely as envisioned because "no plan survives contact with he enemy".

I'm not sure the Bf 110 ever really worked as a day time fighter after the Battle of France, did it?