Which side would you fly for?.......

well, if I can attempt to tie what we have been talking about to the thread topic, the way WWI was ended, and the way that the treaty was circumvented by the Nazis, dictated the nature and strength of the LW in the second war. The Luftwaffe took on the strength and form that it did, because of these historical roots and preconditions, at least in part.

For those who would like to continue the 1918 discussion in an appropriate thread, i have created a new one here:

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/world-war-i/1918-year-offensives-30213.html#post818918

For those that want to bang on about war crimes and national war guilt, ther are a number of threads you can repose to:


Here are a few that I could find with all of 30 seconds of searching

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/modern/osama-bin-laden-dead-28935-13.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/war-crimes-trials-effective-23907.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/day-war-europe-65-years-ago-6116.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/daylight-v-night-bombing-27026.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/battle-nanking-26567.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww...rmed-war-crime-actions-1939-1945-a-22972.html

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/stories/trial-max-wielen-23606.html


http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ww2-general/churchill-execute-hitler-without-trial-21940.html


You will see, that whilst there was talk of executiuon without trial and the notion of collective resposnsibility, in the finish the Allies, only extended the principal of national culpbability to the point of who was responible for the war. after that only individuals were indicted, whilst a program of de-nazification and de-militarization was initiated in all the allied controled sectors.

For those wishing to compare the allied processes of justice to those employed by the Germans, i could not find any threads or relevant topics in this forum. As a starting suggestion, I would suggest people do a search of just one word: Lidice.

From there we cannot afford to discuss this issue any further. Suggest you guys either latch on to one of the relevant threads, or start your own. I will not be responding to any comments regarding this issue on this thread

Lets get back to flying. This is starting to get far too political - especially in a thread asking which side would you fly for.

I sincerely apologise for my indiscretion. I was attempting to give people appropriate alternatives to air their views on the sidetrack issues that have arisen, not hijack the thread yet again. I thought that was clear in my last post, but apologise if its overstepped the mark

Depending on the mission requirements, time of day, targeting and route parameters etc, selected aircraft form most major involved nations. I won't bother to explain this, cause nodoubt it'll inflame - Nuff' Said.

Weren't the Brits the first to come up with Air Craft Carriers and Radar? I know I heard that somewhere..? or am I wrong? lol

Technically, the first aircraft carrier was the USS Birmingham.

Photographs of the World's First Aircraft Carrier - Nicholas Jackson - Technology - The Atlantic

razor1uk said:

Forgotten? which model do you mean.

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Sorry for confusing you there,razor.By fighters i mean the Axis as combatants and not BF-109 itself.

Terri-Tsu said:

Weren't the Brits the first to come up with Air Craft Carriers and Radar? I know I heard that somewhere..? or am I wrong? lol

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hi terri tsu and welcome

Notwithstanding the above, the brits are generally credited with development of the first operational aircraft carriers. Whilst there were a number of experiments conductted by a number of Navies from before WWI, the first true carrier was HMS Argus. She was the first ship able to launch AND recover aircraft, which is the true definition of an aircraft carrier. A ship only capable of launching aircraft is not a true carrier

Theories about radar were first developed in the late 19th century by a German named Hentz. There were further developments from that time onward, with the main technological advances in the militarty application of radar flip flopping between Britain and Germany. Nearly all the major powers conducted research into the field, but it was the germans and the british that led the way in the period 1930-40. Germany developed the first seaborne radars, whilst the british developed the first air defence system on a national scale that used radar. Radar played a critical role in the battle of Britain.

There is a lot of disagreement in this place, but most contemporary histories agree that the allies enjoyed some considerable advantage in radar applications as the war progressed. A significant technological advance for the allies was the invention and use of the cavity magnetron, which allowed wavelengths for allied radars to be shortened which inturn increased their range and definition. The allied superiority is generally linked to this shorter wavelength, called centimetric radar. The axis developed centimetric radar as well, but it came somewhat later.

Radar is not of great use, unless the military organi zation develops effective means to utilize it. The US Navy suffred a number of humiliating defeats around the island of guadacanal in 1942, at the hands of the Japanese, despite the fact that they (the US) was equipped with radar, and the Japanese were not, and the fights were fought at night. Theoretically the Japanese should have been defeated, because they were not equipped with this technology, but in reality the US lacked the expertise and military organization on their ships to use this advantage effectively.

Conversely, the british inflicted a number of heavy defeats at sea over the Italians. The principal reason was that the Royal Navy had radfar, PLUS the organization abord their ships to use that advantage.

Some nations had radar, but failed to use it correctly. For example, the German navy possessed some very good radars on their ships, but tended to keep these radars switched off, for fear the electronic signatures would give away their positions at sea. There was some truth to that, but keeping your radars off was a bad idea generally, because you could not see what was coming at you, and prevented evasive action being taken generally

The Allies. How could any person of any nationality alive today, knowing what is now known about the Axis, justify choosing to fly for the Axis?

Lighthunmust said:

The Allies. How could any person of any nationality alive today, knowing what is now known about the Axis, justify choosing to fly for the Axis?

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Simple answer Steve, is none. Other than a few with odd political leanings trying to relive the past.
Cheers
John

I would not want to fly for the cause, but I would love to have flown for the Luftwaffe with its aircraft (for the purposes of the aircraft alone because I love the aircraft.)

That is what I voted before. Call it trying to relive the past and crucify me if you wish, I really don't care. I am sure someone will construe my words in which ever way they wish.

Of course if I had been alive back then I would have flown for the allies as it was a just cause, and well I am American. If I had been German, well I would flown for the Luftwaffe with honor, as any pilot from any nation would have. Call it "odd" political learning's as well if you wish.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I would not want to fly for the cause, but I would love to have flown for the Luftwaffe with its aircraft (for the purposes of the aircraft alone because I love the aircraft.)

That is what I voted before. Call it trying to relive the past and crucify me if you wish, I really don't care. I am sure someone will construe my words in which ever way they wish.

Of course if I had been alive back then I would have flown for the allies as it was a just cause, and well I am American. If I had been German, well I would flown for the Luftwaffe with honor, as any pilot from any nation would have. Call it "odd" political learning's as well if you wish.

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The LW aircraft are just machines and very good machines too.
Its the paraphernalia that goes with them that is disturbing.

Does this not worry you too Chris?

I dont think choosing which side you would fly for should have much to do with the politics of the nation. For me, it would be where you would relate to the people the best. Each nationality is different, with differing priorities and emphasis. I dont begrudge those that voted for either side. thats not what my arguments in this place are about. I would want people to be free to say what they like. i amy not agree with what they say, but I defend their right to say it.

What upsets me about these internet discussions, is that unlike the research papers of formal univerities, people can (and do) say anything and some others will believe them. i believe that through these means of "proagandised" history, history is in fact being rewritten to suit a new generation of revisionists, generally younger,angrier amd uninterested in the truth.

Its up to us to defend their right to say it, but to keep the truth out there as achoice for people.

parsifal said:

I dont think choosing which side you would fly for should have much to do with the politics of the nation. For me, it would be where you would relate to the people the best. Each nationality is different, with differing priorities and emphasis. I dont begrudge those that voted for either side. thats not what my arguments in this place are about. I would want people to be free to say what they like. i amy not agree with what they say, but I defend their right to say it.

What upsets me about these internet discussions, is that unlike the research papers of formal univerities, people can (and do) say anything and some others will believe them. i believe that through these means of "proagandised" history, history is in fact being rewritten to suit a new generation of revisionists, generally younger,angrier amd uninterested in the truth.

Its up to us to defend their right to say it, but to keep the truth out there as achoice for people.

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Wise words Michael. Thank you

There is a lot or 'revised' history going around in Europe and it irritates the f*** out of me.

Cheers
John

Readie said:

Does this not worry you too Chris?

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If you mean in the men that flew the machines? No it does not worry me. They flew for their country and as any would do. Were the Nazis wrong? Of course they were, but the average German pilot was flying for his nation as any pilot would do.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

If you mean in the men that flew the machines? No it does not worry me. They flew for their country and as any would do. Were the Nazis wrong? Of course they were, but the average German pilot was flying for his nation as any pilot would do.

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You misunderstand my point Chris.

I realise that the average German sailor, soldier and airman was only doing what he allied counterpart was doing.Fighting.

The paraphernalia I am referring to are the symbols of hate.
For instance I think that the swastika is completely inappropriate on restored LW aircraft and the unhealthy interest some people have (all nations I might add) in SS insignia etc. This worries me as do the scum in the EDL and NF etc.

This is just my opinion and not a springboard for a round of argumentative posts.

John

This is where some may learn that, as Chris said, LW pilots were mostly far and removed from politics.

In 1940, JG 53 was ordered to paint red stripes across the noses of their 109s because their CO had married against orders. In addition to the stripes, they also removed the swastika. Pretty gutsy.

The swastika pre-dates the Third Reich as a runic symbol. Many symbols used by the Nazis were from the occult.

Two years ago, I was part of a 9 ship formation flying to the US Memorial Day festivities across the southland. Part of the Condor Squadron has aircraft painted to look like German aircraft from the second world war because they pull mock dogfights and they can't have Americans shooting at Americans. To keep the historical accuracy of the Luftwaffe squadron they are painted with teh same markings and the swastika. For the photo shoot, I was in the back of one of the German marked aircraft. Yes, a Jew was riding in an airplane with a swastika. It was a historically accurate paint scheme and not a symbol of condoning what happened.

From almost everything I have read, the Luftwaffe pilots were chivalrous and were not supportive of any racist ideology. In fact, one of the Stalag Lufts was to be inspected by the SS, who were looking for Jewish POWs. The Luftwaffe drove them off.