Who ever talked about tracer rounds ? I've shot plenty 8mm FMJ rounds as-well, tracers and AP rounds alike. However we're talking about incendiary rounds here Tom, NOT tracers! The incendiary round have s small explosive filler in the nose, which on impact explodes and creates a big flash, causing more surface damage and allowing the pilot to better observe hits.
Which was harder to shoot down, a P-47D or a FW 190A?
- Thread starter Soundbreaker Welch?
- Start date
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Who ever talked about tracer rounds ? I've shot plenty 8mm FMJ rounds as-well, tracers and AP rounds alike. However we're talking about incendiary rounds here Tom, NOT tracers! The incendiary round have s small explosive filler in the nose, which on impact explodes and creates a big flash, causing more surface damage and allowing the pilot to better observe hits.
The much smaller holes of the 7.92mm rounds are visible in stark contrast to 20mm damage. (small peppering of holes below the canopy)
When looking at the close up I don't see that much peppering KK, I only see one possible 7.92mm hole, and then damage caused by 20mm fire.
Seems like a 20mm HE round hit one of the canopy struts, tearing it apart, and then the tip continued through the fuselage.
On the below picture of the right side I can see some obvious 7.92mm damage though, one hit right above the "HV" designation and one hit on the lower right corner of the vertical stabilizer:
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Tony Williams
Airman 1st Class
Yes, they did vary the belting for different purposes. The bomber destroyers had 5x HEI-T, 5x M-Geschoss, 1x API
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Ok, thanks.
I saw a FW190 at the NASM (at least I think it was there). It is roughly the same size as the other European fighters of that time (Spit, ME109, Hurricane, ect).
Have also seen the P47 over at the Reading Airshow.
Having seen them both, the size differential is incredible. The P47 is really huge. Looks like it is about 2x the size of standard European fighters. You really have to see it to believe it.
Not sure how it affects the discussion but I thought I'd throw that in there.
Have also seen the P47 over at the Reading Airshow.
Having seen them both, the size differential is incredible. The P47 is really huge. Looks like it is about 2x the size of standard European fighters. You really have to see it to believe it.
Not sure how it affects the discussion but I thought I'd throw that in there.
machine shop tom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 13, 2007
Erich
the old Sage
well KK although Tony has immense resources I do not agree that in 1940-43 that the M round was standard equipment in the MG FF. through interviews of day/night fighter pilots not one has said when asked about the Minen rounds if they had them available before 1944...........so ......... ? obviously it was called something else just HE and HEI, yellow bodied
No problem Tom.
Here's a cut away picture of a Luftwaffe 7.92mm incendiary round, the B.-V-Patronen:
I have original design drawings and specification sheets as-well if anyone is interested.
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
Are there more pictures of Johnson's fighter? Because I can see only 1 of the 21 cannon hits and it'd be very useful to know where the other 20 went.
Btw: He was lucky he had a Razorback!
Btw: He was lucky he had a Razorback!
machine shop tom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 13, 2007
Here is a thought experiment. Let's say that Meyer's and Johnson's positions were reversed. How would Meyer's FW-190 have faired had Johnson's P-47 had raked him time and again with only 2 of Johnson's .50 machine guns working? Or, to be fair, with 2 .30 machine guns under the same circumstances. How would the FW-190 have held up with a similar amount of 20mm hits?
tom
tom
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
... now include that the Fw is about half the size and more maneouvarable, how many 20mm would've hit him in the first place?
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Johnson got hit with the 20mm when jumped while in formation. So while the size would matter, maneuverability would not in this circumstance.
P-47 Thunderbolt: Aviation Darwinism - The Cradle of Aviation Museum - The Cradle of Aviation Museum
P-47 Thunderbolt: Aviation Darwinism - The Cradle of Aviation Museum - The Cradle of Aviation Museum
machine shop tom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 13, 2007
For my thought experiment we are considering that the FW-190 is flying straight and level as Johnson's was and has already incurred similar damage.
tom
I'm fairly certain they mistakingly counted quite a few holes caused by the very same rounds, cause it definitely doesn't look like it was hit by 21 20mm rounds.
A single hit from a 20mm HE round can cause a lot of shrapnel damage, as evident by looking at the cockpit where one round most likely both mangled the struts while the tip of it continued through the fuselage. (Explaining the rectangular hole)
I bet a LOT of shrapnel was generated when he was first hit in the engine, the 20mm projectiles hammering into the engine block and exploding into large flat pieces causing a lot of holes in the engine shield cover.
Seems like a single 20mm HE hit to the tail rudder as-well.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Perhaps the 21 would include non HE 20mm hits as well.
claidemore
Senior Airman
There's a story about Davy Crockett, who did a little shooting contest against another fella. They both fired two shots at marks on trees. The other fellas bullet holes were about an inch apart, but Davy had only one bullet hole on his mark, it looked like one shot missed the tree completely. So he pulled out his knife, dug into the tree, and sure enough there were two bullets in the same hole.
- Thread starter
- #78
Soundbreaker Welch?
Tech Sergeant
If a person could do that from a plane, then he would perhaps be the best marksman there was.
claidemore
Senior Airman
hehe, yup, to do it by design would be pretty much impossible, but due to the uncertain vaugaries (or vauge uncertainties) of air combat, it could sure happen by accident.
