Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Wasn't the highest scoring American ace in the ETO flying Jugs? Gabreski or Johnson? I think that would say alot for its combat ability.
Which was harder to shoot down, a P-47D or a FW 190A?
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Erich
the old Sage
well true to a point the Mustang was introduced later, Gabby was the high scorer of the 56th fg which never changed from the Jug like many 8th AF units .......... did
JugBR
Staff Sergeant
Which was harder to shoot down, a P-47D or a FW 190A?
The P-47´s
Which is more valuable today, a P-47D or a FW 190A?
The Fw 190´s
how many jugs (besides me) still alive ?
how many fw´s still alive ?
--------------------------------------------
i didnt understood why make a comparsion of a plane from the middle of the war and another from the end of the war. isnt that unfair ?
wasnt better a comparsion between the fw190a4 and the p47c for example ?
The P-47´s
Which is more valuable today, a P-47D or a FW 190A?
The Fw 190´s
how many jugs (besides me) still alive ?
how many fw´s still alive ?
--------------------------------------------
i didnt understood why make a comparsion of a plane from the middle of the war and another from the end of the war. isnt that unfair ?
wasnt better a comparsion between the fw190a4 and the p47c for example ?
ScOoTeR1992
Senior Airman
hay wasn't there an episode on the History channel one night i recall a P-47 Vs a FW 190 the 'jug' absorbed all the rounds the 190 hit it with cannon rounds through the engine and all he flew back to England and he landed it safely as well
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
Which has a lot to do with who won the war, not with which was easier to shoot down.
Again history is written by the victors, it takes time for the truth to come out, that's how it is and has been with all wars.
The Jug 190 were probably roughly just as hard to shoot down, but size is usually a good thing when you're talking about absorbing damage, and the Jug was the larger of the two. But as an equalizer the Jug wasn't anywhere as maneuveable as the Fw-190, so in a match up it was the Jug which would have to be good at absorbing damage.
The Jug 190 were probably roughly just as hard to shoot down, but size is usually a good thing when you're talking about absorbing damage, and the Jug was the larger of the two. But as an equalizer the Jug wasn't anywhere as maneuveable as the Fw-190, so in a match up it was the Jug which would have to be good at absorbing damage.
machine shop tom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 13, 2007
Here's a good page featuring Robert S. Johnson:
Robert S. Johnson
From an interview with Military History:
"MH: Pilots generally swear by their aircraft. Günther Rall and Erich Hartmann praised the Messerschmitt Bf-109, Erich Rudorffer and Johannes Steinhoff the Me-262, and Buddy Haydon the P-51 Mustang. I have to say after seeing all of the old photos of the various Thunderbolts and others that were shot up, I can't imagine any other plane absorbing that much damage and still flying. What is your opinion of your aircraft?
Johnson: This is very similar to the German debate. As far as the 109, all of the German pilots loved that plane, but the FW-190 was harder to shoot down. Just like the controversy over the P-51 and P-47. The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness thatallowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force. As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before. The P-51s had the advantage of longer range, and they were able to hit even the training schools, hitting boys just learning to fly. As the war dragged on, many of the old German veterans had been killed--so much of the experience was gone. As far as the 109 versus 190 argument, the 109 had the liquid-cooled engine whereas the 190 had an air-cooled radial engine, much like ours. One hit in the cooling system of a Messerschmitt and he was going down. Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47. When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces, by the way; they went in just under the skin. I had been hurt worse playing football and boxing. However, I had never been that scared, I'll tell you that. I was always scared--that was what made me move quick. "Hub" Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplane--that was how he became a POW. Adolf Galland, who was a very good friend of mine and who I had known since 1949, flew the Me-262 and loved it, but he still swore by the 109, although it was still easier to shoot down."
Robert S. Johnson
From an interview with Military History:
"MH: Pilots generally swear by their aircraft. Günther Rall and Erich Hartmann praised the Messerschmitt Bf-109, Erich Rudorffer and Johannes Steinhoff the Me-262, and Buddy Haydon the P-51 Mustang. I have to say after seeing all of the old photos of the various Thunderbolts and others that were shot up, I can't imagine any other plane absorbing that much damage and still flying. What is your opinion of your aircraft?
Johnson: This is very similar to the German debate. As far as the 109, all of the German pilots loved that plane, but the FW-190 was harder to shoot down. Just like the controversy over the P-51 and P-47. The P-47 was faster; it just did not have the climb and range the Mustang did. But it had speed, roll, dive and the necessary ruggedness thatallowed it to do such a great job in the Ninth Air Force. As far as aerial kills go, we met and beat the best the Luftwaffe had when we first got there. It was the P-47 groups that pushed them back, as I said before. The P-51s had the advantage of longer range, and they were able to hit even the training schools, hitting boys just learning to fly. As the war dragged on, many of the old German veterans had been killed--so much of the experience was gone. As far as the 109 versus 190 argument, the 109 had the liquid-cooled engine whereas the 190 had an air-cooled radial engine, much like ours. One hit in the cooling system of a Messerschmitt and he was going down. Also, none of the German fighters were as rugged as a P-47. When I was badly shot up on June 26, 1943, I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets. One nicked my nose and another entered my right leg, where the bullet split in half. I still have those two little pieces, by the way; they went in just under the skin. I had been hurt worse playing football and boxing. However, I had never been that scared, I'll tell you that. I was always scared--that was what made me move quick. "Hub" Zemke liked the P-51 because it had great range, but he put one in a dive and when he pulled out he ripped the wings off that airplane--that was how he became a POW. Adolf Galland, who was a very good friend of mine and who I had known since 1949, flew the Me-262 and loved it, but he still swore by the 109, although it was still easier to shoot down."
KrazyKraut
Banned
- 337
- Apr 21, 2008
That incident is legendary, some others are also impressive. But obviously you won't hear as much of incidents where P-47s were brought down by a few 20mm rounds hitting the sweet spots: They don't make for nice stories.
Rudel also had a nice story about his Schlacht-Fw 190 btw. I'll try to dig it up.
Rudel also had a nice story about his Schlacht-Fw 190 btw. I'll try to dig it up.
machine shop tom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 13, 2007
I think this bears a post of it's own:
"I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets."
This was not a load for his weapons. These are hits from enemy fire.
Holy crap!
tom
"I had twenty-one 20mm cannon shells in that airplane, and more than 200 7.92mm machine-gun bullets."
This was not a load for his weapons. These are hits from enemy fire.
Holy crap!
tom
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
And somthing else not usually mentioned on that story:
Structural integrity of the P-47 why Oleg is wrong! - Topic Powered by eve community
Structural integrity of the P-47 why Oleg is wrong! - Topic Powered by eve community
Lt. Robert S Johnson. Lawton, OK. 61st Fighter Squadron. P-47C 41-6235 HV-P "Half Pint". Detail shot of damage to canopy area
Lt. Robert S Johnson. Lawton, OK. 61st Fighter Squadron. P-47C 41-6235 HV-P "Half Pint". Well known photo but worth looking at again as contrary to popular belief, this a/c was not written of but repaired and issued to the 9th AF's 36th FG where it was finally lost on 18 August 1944.
Blue Yonder
Airman 1st Class
The Thunderbolt could definately take more damage, although sometimes it was more luck than actual design. My cousin's grandfather was a Liberator pilot and remembers seeing a Thunderbolt take a barrage from another fighter and he thought that the pilot died, but he performed an inverted immelman and flew away. He wasn't sure what happened to the pilot or if the plane survived but he said that in any other plane the pilot's body probably would have been riddled with bullets. I would believe that the P-47 would be better than the FW-190.
Speaking of 190's did anyone remember seeing the video about them raising one near Norway?
If not, here's the clip:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnc0C71vbtA
The music is not to my taste, but it's good footage.
Speaking of 190's did anyone remember seeing the video about them raising one near Norway?
If not, here's the clip:
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnc0C71vbtA
The music is not to my taste, but it's good footage.
Erich
the old Sage
had Johnsons Jug received the later HE I Minengeschoss he never would of been able to write up his details, twenty 2cm rounds would of vaporized his a/c
just a thought to ponder
just a thought to ponder
Certainly as Erich says the ammunition type would of been key but then again they would of vapourised a FW-190 as easily as they would a P-47. Looking a lighter calibre rounds (and non-minegeschoss 20mm rounds) then I would say the P-47 can take slightly more damage but there isn't much between them. Both were very good aircraft when it comes down to surviving taking enemy hits.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Wasn't the Fw-190A-4 (which Johnson would have likely faced) armmed with MG-FF/M outer wing cannons, which contained mostly Minengeschoss rounds?
Although the wing root MG-151/20's would have had mixed belting, wouldn't there be some Minengeschoss in them as well?
Although the wing root MG-151/20's would have had mixed belting, wouldn't there be some Minengeschoss in them as well?
Erich
the old Sage
not in 1943, only in the spring and in summer of 44 did the round become almost standard for the Mauser 2cm's
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
But the MG-FF/M did, right? (by '44 it wasn't the MG-FF and FF/M mostly phased out)
patriot66
Recruit
machine shop tom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 13, 2007
A fighter is impacted by 21 20mm explosive rounds (and 100s of 8mm machine gun rounds to boot) and some one is nit-picking the type of rounds used?
Sheesh! Ya gotta look at the WHOLE picture to understand what's going on.
If Johnson's P-47 was painted titty pink, ya think he might have been harder to hit?
tom
Sheesh! Ya gotta look at the WHOLE picture to understand what's going on.
If Johnson's P-47 was painted titty pink, ya think he might have been harder to hit?
tom
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Well it does make a big difference when the standard HE round carried 3.6 g of filler, and the HE(M) shell carries 18 g. (the later HE(XM) carrying 25 g)
machine shop tom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 13, 2007
I found this while looking around.
"20x80RB
The German Luftwaffe decided in the late 1930s to adopt a light cannon to equip its fighters and selected the Oerlikon FF, which they made under licence as the MG-FF. However, they made some changes to the gun and ammunition, including lengthening the cartridge case. During 1940 they introduced the "Minengeschoss" (mine shell), which was made by drawing the projectile body in the same way as a cartridge case rather than drilling a cavity for explosives. This enabled very thin projectile walls to be made, doubling their HE/I capacity while also reducing their weight. The recoil characteristics were different, causing the gun to be modified and subsequently given the designation "MG-FFM"
From here:
An introduction to collecting 20 mm cannon cartridges The 20 mm automatic cannon first saw service during World War 1 but achieved its
Perhaps the round in question was indeed used against Johnson?
tom
