Which was the best night fighter?

[Erich]

and that is what the LW production crews did made the Ju 88G better and better, it would of been replaced in time by the Me 262B-2 and some Arado 234 variants but that was too late in the game, so cram as much hard/software into your existing Ju 88G-6, another crewman for a pair of eyes, all the electronics you can think of some of them never jammed and go after the 4 engine big boys.

The Uhu never was able to prove itself with an increased better version in the A-7 line as the program was sacked. it did not have the noteriety with other NJG's as they used them as test pieces and were not overly fond of the craft as there was not enough mission time on those rigs better to stay with what had already been proven in and up to 1945 even with the junk heap Bf 110G-4.

E ~

 

[Glider]

Can I ask someone to tell me why they believe the 262 would make a great nightfighter.

 

[Freebird]

Does anyone have data on the early war years? (1940 - mid '42?) How did the Me110 fare as a night fighter compared to the Beaufighter or Blenheim?

 

[Erich]

well the single seat 262 already proved it self against the Mossie of the LSNF during late 44 till wars end. the range was the problem to be solved eventually with the two seater B-2a

 

[luftlover]

well, adler, are we argueing for no point? your last post looks like it agrees to my point. or perhapes I'm just confused

The me 262B-2a, havent heard much, but didn't it replace a fuel tank with the radar operator, reducing range? and, this was brought up in the uhu discussion, wouldn't the cramped cocpit prevent advanced radar being instaled?(I think erich said limited room for optics)

I personally think the Me-262 would have been scary to be in if they were closing on a very slow bomber. fireing time would almost certainly be next to nothing due to the short range of the Mk-108 and high speed, and the vaunted "slanting music" couldn't be installed. not to mention that, although invincable due to its high speed, it would be asoundingly visable due to the exhaust(perhapes not true, but considering every prop nf had an exhast shroud...) and a bomber in a corkscrew is not an easy thing to track at night.

but the arado 234 I don't see as many problems (beside the visable part)

cheerio

 

[Erich]

thh B-2a was not used and was in the tes phases at wars end. everything we reconditioned and streamlined, the radar was to be the Berlin 240 AI or something newer. the fuel nacelles were to be on the outside and armor plated of the fuselage, all the latest equipment, no-more stupid front end drop tanks to increase anymore as it was carried within to extend range far and wide of Germany. Granted it is still going to be slower than the vaunted Helle nacht single seat 262 but at least now radar fitted and an extra pair of eyes, and yes you are correct the Halis and Lancs could be spotted by exhaust flames, the darkness of night the shadows were still plainly visible

 

[luftlover]

jee, does every great german night fighter have to be in the prototype stages

 

[Glider]

In nightfighting going to fast when approaching a target was a major problem, it was often better to come in slow so the additional speed would be a significant problem, not a benefit.

 

[comiso90]

I agree with u Glider although one significant benefit of speed is that the interception can occur further from the target.

.

 

[Erich]

hold on are we talking just about the Me 262 or ? think there is some confusion here over the tactics involved and no not all nfs were prototypes, and that is something am not sure where that came from either...

A little background and it will be covered all in my book in time. The Me 262A-1a was designed to intercept the Mossies of the RAF flying over Berlin on nuisance raids and they were quite successful for the few jets that flew on missions.

The Kommando run by Kurt Welter was formed for just that task in December of 44, Kurt knew full well by early spring of 45 that Mossies were only making a dent in the war effort and asked for acceptance of converted twin seat B-1a's fitted with radar and foul weather gear became the B-1a/U1. At least 5 ops were untertaken maybe more and only 1 Mossie was intercepeted and shot down though others were sighted and due to mechancial failures more than crew failures the Mossies were not chased or shot down. Due to the bombing at Burg which nearly blew the unit away by US B-17's this even put a further damper on interceptions as the unit was dived into 2 parts and the low profile from grass fields that the unit had to take almost completely kept them from the heavier bomber engagements

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

well, adler, are we argueing for no point? your last post looks like it agrees to my point. or perhapes I'm just confused

No I think we are just shooting past each other here. In your original post your made it seem that a new aircraft would be quicker than existing ones, which is why I asked you how that could be. And that is what I have been argueing.

 

[Civettone]

I am astound by the comment of the speed of the Me 262 becoming a hazard at night. First of all, it's perfectly possible to slow down with a Me 262. It does have a throttle, really it does...

Second, it would make every jet night fighter a hazard when intercepting slow moving targets. Just think of the Meteor NF.

And I still feel a depreciation for the MK 108. If you have 4 of them you really don't need many seconds to shoot down a heavy bomber.

Kris

 

[Glider]

Damn difficult these Jerries, fancy putting a throttle on the aircraft.

Seriously. Its a simplification obviously but generally range is of high importance in a nightfighter and the 262 had at best an average range, but compared to most nightfighters Ju88, Mossie, Beaufighter, 110, it was on the short side. Max speed isn't that important in a NF as you almost invariably are stalking an aircraft that is going at cruising speed.
Obviously the NF will need to be able to overtake its quarry but extreme speeds are of limited benefit. If you somehow miss the target or they see you first, you can be sure that they will pour on the coals and evade like stink.
With the limited range of WW2 radars and if they are in your 'zone' then there is a good chance that you will overshoot as they will still be evading. Its far more likely that there not in your zone, then you have probably lost them and you will ever see them again.

I would trade range and low speed agility for extreme speed. Even a Lanc or a He111 could be a difficult target if it saw the attacker first.

 

[luftlover]

sorry adler for misleading you, I assure you not deliberate

About the prototype thing, I ment is as the germans seemed to be only a few months away(or a little more resources ) from some truly amazing NF, the Do 335, he 219, the me 262, the Ar 234 are the ones I can think of, something the allies could have found difficult to deal with(but, come to think of it, the p-82 could have been really scary)

the speed is important(isn't it always?) because you can intercept aircraft much quicker, personally making up slightly for the me-262 range deficet(can also climb to altitude faster)

however, like glider said, the final interception still had to be done by eyeball, and the whole visibal thing i brought up was that the bomber crew would see the me-262 far before it saw the bomber. A corkscrewing bomber I've heard is hard to track at night, and considering the bomber could go into manuvers before the me 262 could see the bomber, well, it would be difficult (hey pilot, see those twin fireballs heading toward us? I think it would be prudent to go into evasive manuvers now )

as well, throttals only help so much, the me 262 was not know for it's acceleration, and considering the bomber in a corksrew was changing speed, hieght, and direction, it would be hard to keep with the bomber. the me 262 was also not known for its low speed agility

the metor nf was intcepting buzz bombs, very visable, flying near 400mph on a straight and level course, no where near the same as intercepting a bomber (they had to firewall the throtal just to catch the bloody things)

And as far as the Mk 108, I love the weapon myself, it's just that those shots need to hit, and that I'm not sure about wether that could happen (tajectory doesn't help matters, the one glaring fault of the weapon) but for your benifit, I doubt any other weapon would do any better, and the hiting power is a big +.

given these factors, I doubt the me 262, B-2a or not, would have been astondingly effective against heav bombers, but in the end the ability to outrun those pesky misq. (and shoot them down ) was probably in the minds of many pilots worth it wieght in gold

 

[Erich]

the B-2a would of blown RAF bombers out of the sky. you also forget the typical attack by the LW was from underneath and in the case of the effective 10./NJG 11 the searchlights shown the Mossies and 4 engines quite easily long before they spotted a 262. Mk 108's would of been kept maybe only 2 instead of 4 and also possibly four 21cm instead of the short range 3cm which blew off to big a hunks of bomber, and without belly turrets as standard .........well you can figure it out

 

[Glider]

I understand where you are coming from and you are correct but if your going after the heavy bombers then a Ju88 would be a better bet as it can stay in the air longer.
As for the mossies a number had rear warning equipment which could make life very difficult

PS I would prefer the reliability of the Ju88 engines. Landing a 262 at night with one engine would scare the heck out of me!!

 

[HoHun]

Hi Luftlover,

>And as far as the Mk 108, I love the weapon myself, it's just that those shots need to hit, and that I'm not sure about wether that could happen (tajectory doesn't help matters, the one glaring fault of the weapon)

You have to realize that it's not really the absolute curvature that counts, but rather the curvature in relation to the sight line. For harmonization, you can simply depress the sight line so that the trajectory intersects the sight line at the range of your choice.

For the Bf 109G-6, intersection occurred at 80 m and at 400 m, with the greatest height of the trajectory being 64 cm above the sightline at 250 m out.

This meant that you could simply put the crosshair centrally on a fighter-sized target and expect solid hits (if it kept flying steadily) out to 450 m. At 500 - 600 m, you'd have to compensate by aiming slightly high (at the tip of the vertical stabilizer).

Beyond 600 m, the trajectory dropped so quickly that the problem of range estimation prevented hits in my opinion.

(The MK108 trajectory would have allowed depressing the sightline even more to give "boresight" hits out to 500 m, but as realistic combat ranges regardless of the gun type were usually half that figure, that would not have made much sense. The rule of thumb in air combat was that the number of hits for a given number of rounds was inverserly proportional to the square of the range.)

The strong point of the MK108 was not only firepower, but also low dispersion. As it was an advanced-primer blowback weapon with short barrel and low muzzle velocity, it didn't suffer from barrel oscillations in rapid fire mode as badly as weapons with higher muzzle velocity, resulting in a very dense pattern.

However, for night fighters, all of that is academic anyway since as far as I can tell, the combat distances were usually 100 m and less.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Civettone]

Yet another magnificent post Henning. I seem to learn something from you each time. Respect!
Really interesting about that sight line.
But yes, it wouldn't be important for close range night fighting.

however, like glider said, the final interception still had to be done by eyeball, and the whole visibal thing i brought up was that the bomber crew would see the me-262 far before it saw the bomber. A corkscrewing bomber I've heard is hard to track at night, and considering the bomber could go into manuvers before the me 262 could see the bomber, well, it would be difficult (hey pilot, see those twin fireballs heading toward us? I think it would be prudent to go into evasive manuvers now )

as well, throttals only help so much, the me 262 was not know for it's acceleration, and considering the bomber in a corksrew was changing speed, hieght, and direction, it would be hard to keep with the bomber. the me 262 was also not known for its low speed agility

the metor nf was intcepting buzz bombs, very visable, flying near 400mph on a straight and level course, no where near the same as intercepting a bomber (they had to firewall the throtal just to catch the bloody things)

You have to be kidding me. Meteor NF was intercepting buzz bombs??????????

And what about those twin fireballs heading towards the bombers?? How does that work?? Since when do jet engines look like fireballs?

Kris

 

[luftlover]

as usual forced to defend myself

erich, yes, they did attack from below, but did the b-2a have the upward firing guns(scorage muzic or something), it doesn't seem likely looking at the trainer 2 seat versions, and given this they would have to attack from behind, where the tail gunner would see them. I know that they could pull up below the bombers, but this was dangerous due to 1, falling debris and 2, if you screwed up you were a sittling duck for the gunners. and searchlights?...thats reinstaling the whole "wild boar" thing, good, but not great(were searchlights THAT reliable for finding bombers, radar seems to be better) and I think most admit even without jets if a bomber is in the searchlights the liklyhood of it not making it increases dramaticly

and civi, the fireballs are coming out of the jet engines, the flickering of the exhust In other words, perhapes not a fireball per say but it sounds better then 2 big red lights

and about the meteor, as far as I know... what else was over england at the time?????? If it came across a few planes, fine, but how many? overal the metor was not a very sucessful fighter in any role, only intercepting buzz bombs because it could catch them, but so could the top piston engined fighters. and, on a second thought, this is the first time I've heard the metor was used as a night fighter. was it equiped with radar at all? no radar operator...

hohun, great info on the mk 108(darn fine weapon dontcha think ), but on a sub-note, in day fighting hitting a target beyond 300m was rare, and although accurate, it still has a low rate of fire, it just made up for it by haveing the hitting power. the 20mm was still prefered for destroying fighters, the 30mm for blasting bombers(this is all refering to day fighting)

altogether the me 262 was flying at about 500 mph and lanc about 250mph, I don't think anyone can convince me that won't create problems of some sort(to what degree is debatable, and if I hear 1 comment about the throttle...)

 

[Erich]

I shall no longer respond to the Me 262 except by saying wait for my book and you will find out first hand what really went on ...........