Which was the best night fighter?

[luftlover]

aaaawww, come on, no spoilers

yeah, probably argued enough, like beating a dead cat, but fun nevertheless

but, gee, you must be really sick of the me 262 to be saying that

when will your book come out do you think? I'm impatient, the youth of this nation have beter things to do then wait, but if its worth it...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

as usual forced to defend myself

erich, yes, they did attack from below, but did the b-2a have the upward firing guns(scorage muzic or something), it doesn't seem likely looking at the trainer 2 seat versions, and given this they would have to attack from behind, where the tail gunner would see them.

The word you are looking for is Schräge Musik which is a German term used for Jazz Music. Schräge actually stand for tilted or slanted.

The 262B-2 was designed to be fitted with Schräge Musik but none were built.

 

[luftlover]

ah, thanks adler, could never spell it

well that helps matters a lot, I guess the bomber crew could see them getting into position, but far, far less likely. maybe erich is right about the b-2 slaughtering bombers then(maybe, just maybe )

I heard an interesting article that suggests that if the british had built large numbers of misquitoes it would have been a lot beter off, it cost only a 1/3 as much as a lanc, carried half the bombload to berlin(half... i'm not sure about that), had only 1/10 the lose rate, and only required two crew. it sounds interesting, after all the misq. could outrun anything in the night sky. the article also sugests that used as a day bomber it could have been a lot more sucessful then the b-17, quoting modern bombers rely on speed and low alt hill hopping to survive.

what do you think would happen if this came about. would the luftwaffe be able to even compete in such a situation?

the day part is really hard to believe, given the fighters could still catch them and could take their sweet time blowing them up, but the night part is, well, far more plausable

hears the site. De Havilland Mosquito

 

[lancaster mad]

Definatly the Mosquito as it had a sting. 4 20mm cannon and 4 .303 machine guns, mixed with the Night radar

 

[lancaster mad]

sorry if it causes fuss

 

[lancaster mad]

The BF-110 had a Schräge Musik? As they shot down the lancs and everyone but the mossies. Also, JU-88's had them

 

[Erich]

instead of multiple postings why don't you put your ideas edited all on one post ?

yes the Bf 110G-4 had the Schragwaffen and the 110 also shot down Mossies besides the Ju 88G's

 

[luftlover]

just curious...(and saving a dead thread I hope )

what 1946 nf would have been the best

germans had their jets, new radars coming into service(the ones without the radar ariels) and for kicks lets say they finally worked out the bugs on there piston engines(note, early 1946, no wacky futuristic space age stuff)

the british misq. was the best in 1945, what about 1946? what plans were they cooking up for it?

and america, this one scary, the p-82. fast, rediculous range, decint firepower, manuverable, good radar...

my votes for P-82, but I dont know much about british plans, and germans, well, I have my doubts about jets in a night fight, and they were behind in radar

and also, which would be the best destroying bombers, and which would be best fighting one another(the night infiltrater role the misq. became lengendary for)

 

[luftlover]

but... about our old friend the he 219

WW2 Warbirds: the Heinkel He 219 Uhu - Frans Bonné
A-7/r1
416 mph at 22965 ft
Initial climb rate 1,810 ft per min.

Heinkel He 219 Uhu Night fighter
Maximum speed at altitude 7000m (22,966ft) 665km/h (413 mph)

from wiki(suposedly sourced from janes fighing aircraft)
616 km/h (333 knots, 385 mph) , but no altitude given

Ju 88G, Heavy Night Fighter, Luftwaffe
Specification Ju-88G
Ju-88g-6 535km/h 6000m

alright erich, 130km/h faster then the ju-88/G-6 at 1000m higher.
confession, i'm inclined to believe 385mph, the 413mph is probably without the drag of radar, but....
still a good 80km/h faster at a higher alt.

the argument once again rages over the he-219
will it ever RIP

 

[Civettone]

Don't believe everything you read luftlover. IIRC there were no He 219A-5s or A-7s build, except for a couple of prototypes after production was stopped.

the standard He 219 didn't reach 600 kmh.

kris

 

[AL Schlageter]

Yes the 413/6mph speed was obtained with a striped plane. From what I can remember the antenna was removed, the exhaust shrouds were removed, and there was a decrease in the armament among other stuff.

 

[Erich]

I do not think I need to reeat in this long thread my ideas about Ju 88G-6 comparison and the He 219A do I ? please do not ask again any of you........ the He 219 was not proven the Ju 88G-6 was. you can go to 12 oclock discussion and note that Jukka tired to call me out but was nearly butt kicked right off the forum as he tried to defend the Uhu to no avail. Some of you think I am alone in my ideas but that is flat out wrong.

yes there were A-5's and A-7's issued to I./NJG 1, and the Ju 88G-6 on ops could bust out faster than 385mph. big deal, the Junkers had all the latest arms, radar details and rear warning radar plus another 1-2 crewmen the Uhu did not..........that should be enough to end this silliness

 

[lesofprimus]

BTW Erich, whats the big secret???

 

[Erich]

you are on top if it friend........

~~ the future book I just uncovered some very cool stuff on Kurt Welter and his stint NJGr 10, NJG 11. It has been buried in my files for over 10 years and while I was cleaning for putting up Christmas lights.........yeah we start real early .......... also found some things on Fritz Krause with NJGr 10 and NJG 11 I have had forever..... so yes it has been a well kept hidden........shhhhhh it's a secret !

 

[HoHun]

Hi Al,

>Yes the 413/6mph speed was obtained with a striped plane. From what I can remember the antenna was removed, the exhaust shrouds were removed, and there was a decrease in the armament among other stuff.

According to the Heinkel documentation reproduced in Luftfahrt International issue 16, the top speed of the He 219A-2 without antenna and flame dampers (but otherwise fully equipped, including nacelle fuel tanks and Schräge Musik) was 605 km/h (376 mph) @ 6.3 km using Climb and Combat Power.

The projected speed of the He 219B-2 with a DB603 with high-altitude supercharger for 13 km (42,650 ft) full throttle height was 660 km/h (410 mph, properly converted), which is close to the figure you quote. However, I don't know of any extreme-altitude DB 603 ever taking flight.

I suspect the 413 or 416 mph figure you quote is probably rather an inaccurate conversion of the B-2 topspeed than the result of a stripped-down prototype test. However, that's just a suspicion that perhaps can be proven wrong.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Erich]

and if true H.H. slower than a fully loaded Ju 88G-6 with all the goodies

 

[Erich]

just a note in reply to some of the remarks given by me and another poster from a forum whom tried to pry me out by using my name ........

M.H. I would consider an expert at least with in regards to vets who flew and maintained the He 219 in I./NJG 1

hth

Hello friends,

As an 'airfield Venlo' and I.NJG 1 buff, I am not in a position to compare the quality and efficiency of the He 219 with the Ju 88 and Bf 110 variants. I have my doubts about the value of such debates because we all know that changing operational conditions during WW 2, must have had its impact on the suitability of nightfighter types. Seeburg-Lichtenstein tactics and Himmelbett orientated nightfighting was ideal for the (rather) short range Bf 110 though we all know that as soon the four engined RAF bombers arrived, the NJG's had a lot of difficulties to catch up with the Bf 110. When the Zahme Sau tactics were developed, types as the Ju 88 and He 219 had many more advantages above the Bf 110.

Therefore I can only present some facts of the He 219 with the I.NJG 1:

1) in an early stage of the He 219 design, it was exclusively constructed for the night fighter arm though other versions were planned as well
2) in that light, the comments of Martin Drewes about the design of the He219 (I know: technical quality does not always catch up with designs ) makes sense: several wellknown nightfighter pilots like Streib and Lent were involved during the design process of the He 219. Martin Drewes' is clearly appreciating this influence
3) the I.NJG 1 got their first He 219's (3 prototypes) in May 1943. Streib flew the first combat mission with a He 219 (still a prototype!), shot down 5 bombers and crashed the bird in a landing in Venlo. The remaining He 219's and (later) some newly delivered He 219's obtained a further 7 kills. The total for 1943 is therefore is 12.
4) in 1944 the steadily growing number of He 219's in the I.NJG 1 made it possible to increase the operational range: as one of the frontline units, the I.NJG 1 were involved in Zahme Sau (Tame Boar) operations and for this the He 219 had the appropriate range (but not always the endurance because of many technical malfunctions). The I.NJG 1 was one of the few units capable of shooting down Mosquito's. The total of He 219 victories for 1944 was 122 (including 7 Mosquito's)
5) The I.NJG 1 score for 1945 was just 10 victories

Of the 638 victories of the I.NJG 1, 144 were obtained with the He 219, mostly in 1944 when the 'glory days of nightfighting in 1943' were over. My impression, made during the many years of historical research about the I.NJG 1, is that several advantages of the He 219 were severely hampered by productional problems and technical innovations which did not work properly. The GL/C meetings and Heinkel Archives do reveal many of such shortcommings but contain also many enthousiast reactions of I.NJG 1 flying personel. Many technical difficulties, described in the KTB I.NJG 1 and even more some diaries of pilots and Bordfunkers arouse mixed feelings: good fighting opportunities were blocked by early returns because of malfunctions, but on the other hand pilots were proud to have a plane that was able to intercept Mosquito's.

Another, perhaps revealing question would be why the introduction of the He219 with the I.NJG 1 was much more smoothly then with the II.NJG 1, both units were used to fly the Bf 110. In that respect I do regret that we never will know the impressions of pilots like Werner Streib, Manfred Meurer or Heinz Strüning (they had nocturnal victories with the Bf110, Ju88 and He 219) thought of these aircraft. Even then, their subjective tastes could blur our opinions.

 

[HoHun]

Hi Erich,

>and if true H.H. slower than a fully loaded Ju 88G-6 with all the goodies

I have to admit that I haven't seen good data on the Ju 88G-6 in full nightfighter trim.

What I have is a data sheet on a Ju 88G-7 with Jumo 213E engines and streamlined Morgenstern nose. Due to the different engines, it seems reasonable to compare speeds at sea level: The Ju 88G-7(N) achieves 435 km/h at Climb Combat Power, the He 219A-2 460 km/h (with antennae and flame dampers).

While the DB603A may have had slightly more power than the Jumo 213E at sea level, the Heinkel He 219A-2 appears to be aerodynamically superior by a certain margin. If the Ju 88G-6 is fitted with external antennae (I'm not sure it was), this margin would increase.

As the Ju 88G-6 appears to have been powered by Jumo 213A engines, at medium altitudes the DB603A would have given the He 219A-2 a slight superiority in available power over the Junkers, and in combination with the better aerodynamics, I'd expect the He 219A-2 to be the faster of the two aircraft at altitudes around 6 km.

However, I'm not a nightfighter expert and relying on that single data sheet simply because I lack documents on earlier Ju 88 night fighters that have the required level of technical detail.

(For reference: With antennae and flame dampers added, the top speed of the He 219A-2 dropped to 560 km/h (348 mph) @ 6.3 km.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

 

[Erich]

Ho-hun I think there were no G-7's in operation what you are speaking of is the Ju 88G-6 with the FuG 220d in a streamlined nose cone thus a streamlined form of aerials and the FuG 350N is also housed in the nose. External aerials of the FuG 220d and even the FuG 218 antler array still gave the sped as 385mph. due to weather conditions in a clear bright night skies and altitude the Ju 88G-6 could kick it up to 400mph and over

 

[HoHun]

Hi Erich,

>Ho-hun I think there were no G-7's in operation what you are speaking of is the Ju 88G-6 with the FuG 220d in a streamlined nose cone thus a streamlined form of aerials and the FuG 350N is also housed in the nose.

I'm actually speaking of the G-7, as that's the one described by the data sheet (in the Waffenrevue Night Fighter issue). Quite possible that it didn't see service any more, the magazine only lists 4 prototypes (V112 to 115) which were converted from G-6 airframes.

However, considering that the data sheet probably sums up the best knowledge of the Junkers engineers at the time, it's possible to arrive at an estimate of G-6 performance from that sheet and to use it for a Climb Combat Power performance comparison to the He 219A-2.

The higher speeds you give most likely result from the use of Special Emergency Power (with MW50 injection). In that regime, the Jumo 213A might have held the advantage over the DB 603A, but that is not a certain conclusion. (Detailed power data on the latter engine is a bit scarce.)

Engineering documentation on the G-6 could probably tell us more, but unfortunately I've never seen anything like the G-7 sheet for earlier variants.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)