Which was the best night fighter?
- Thread starter d_bader
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Erich
the old Sage
Njaco you are talking about ace Kurt Welter who formed the Kommando with the 262 with Stamp originally, then on his own with full a-ok's from the great "FAT ONE", this will all be covered at great length in our Moskito-jagd über Deutschland.
Frankly the single seater 262 was limited in range and that was it's primary draw back. nothing could catch it nor was it vulnerable to any Allied nf. Crashes were all due to accidents usually of pilot errors. Several RAF 4 engine crews claimed victories over the jet but they are bogus claims
Frankly the single seater 262 was limited in range and that was it's primary draw back. nothing could catch it nor was it vulnerable to any Allied nf. Crashes were all due to accidents usually of pilot errors. Several RAF 4 engine crews claimed victories over the jet but they are bogus claims
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Thanks, Erich. As I typed that I thought I got the name wrong and was just to lazy to check. 
Its the first name that gets me!Can't wait for the book!
bf109 Emil
Airman
Ju 88, as a fighter, the mosquito all around for flying over 400 mph, and carrying a 4000 lb bomb-load to anypart of Germany, and night patroling German aerodromes preventing a second sortie or destroying planes on their landing approach
You do realize that the Mossie could not fly 400 mph when it was carrying 4000lb of bombs right?
parsifal
Colonel
Hi guys
This is an impressive thread. I would just say that to me, the best single volume account of Night Fighting is "Night Fighters-A development Combat History", Bill Gunston , Stevenage printing 1976.
If this publication is anything to go by, speed, and manouverability were not as important as detection. The allies had a massive advantage in their Mk Vii and SCR-720 sets. But in terms of passive detection, at least until July 1944, the germans had a big advantage with their passive detection systems. After July, Gunston asserts that the last of the NJG advantages were peeled away, and from that point on, the British NF escorting the bomber streams (using the term "escort" in a very loose way) had the upper hand.
Am I mistaken to trust gunston so implicitly. his argument makes sense at least. What was the true nature of night fighter development.....did the allies get the upper hand or not?????
This is an impressive thread. I would just say that to me, the best single volume account of Night Fighting is "Night Fighters-A development Combat History", Bill Gunston , Stevenage printing 1976.
If this publication is anything to go by, speed, and manouverability were not as important as detection. The allies had a massive advantage in their Mk Vii and SCR-720 sets. But in terms of passive detection, at least until July 1944, the germans had a big advantage with their passive detection systems. After July, Gunston asserts that the last of the NJG advantages were peeled away, and from that point on, the British NF escorting the bomber streams (using the term "escort" in a very loose way) had the upper hand.
Am I mistaken to trust gunston so implicitly. his argument makes sense at least. What was the true nature of night fighter development.....did the allies get the upper hand or not?????
bf109 Emil
Airman
This is true, but as opposed to any other aircraft, when bombload was dropped, their speed wouldn't exceed, nor allow them the versatility as 428 squadron had to drop bombload, and instantly convert to a night fighter. Perhaps the only other plane to carry 4000 bomb-load and be able to accelarate to over 400mph, was a corsair, done once by Charles Lindberg, carrying a 2000 and 2x1000 on a special test, with modified bomb-rack built to accomidate load...I believe the heaviest payload carryied by a single engine plane...but could be mistaken...then again the range and fire-power was not equal to the mosquito ...Lindberg quote from his biography
bf109 Emil
Glider
Captain
They could do 405mph carrying 2000lb bombs, but I don't know how fast they could go with 4000lb.
Back to the Arado 234, I have never heard of the NF version but I would have thought that (assuming that its still a single seater) the workload would be too much over Germany. There were single seat NF's in the Pacific but in the confused airspace over Germany with all the allied counter measures to deal with I just don't see it being practical.
If it was a two seat machiine then just ignore this posting.
Back to the Arado 234, I have never heard of the NF version but I would have thought that (assuming that its still a single seater) the workload would be too much over Germany. There were single seat NF's in the Pacific but in the confused airspace over Germany with all the allied counter measures to deal with I just don't see it being practical.
If it was a two seat machiine then just ignore this posting.
parsifal
Colonel
Very Impressive. I knew the Mossie was good, but not that good. How sure are you of this stat????
Yeah for very short periods of time maybe.
Glider
Captain
The attached is a performance test on a B Mk IX giving the speed of 405mph.
In the report it is stated that these performance figures were less than expected!!!
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mosquito/lr495.pdf
In the report it is stated that these performance figures were less than expected!!!
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mosquito/lr495.pdf
Well taking (non existing or let me rather say not extensivly developed) modells such as the 262, 219 or Arado into account, the 335 would probably have had the highest potential as a nightfighter of all the above mentioned aircraft.
Practicaly it was the Ju 88 IMHO. However I would tend to support the idea that the Luftwaffe pilots would have optioned for a Mossie if they would have been given a choice.
If this applies the best nightfighter would be a Mossie and could have found a strong if not superior followup in the Do 335.
Regards
Kruska
View attachment 62195
Practicaly it was the Ju 88 IMHO. However I would tend to support the idea that the Luftwaffe pilots would have optioned for a Mossie if they would have been given a choice.
If this applies the best nightfighter would be a Mossie and could have found a strong if not superior followup in the Do 335.
Regards
Kruska
View attachment 62195
Erich
the old Sage
the way of the Me 262B-2 was at hand the Do 335 would not have been used by any NJG
Hello Erich,
I think that by taking the hopeless situation of Nazi Germany in 45 into account, with all attention being focused on the "miracle" Wunderwaffen, there would have been no support or resources freed for "traditional" systems which might have prooven to be far more effective or would have been needed as a basic requirement/supplementary in order to ensure the effectivness of the jets. It would have taken at least another 2-4 years to develop the existing German jets into reliable cost/effecient prop-replacements.
Until then only props such as a Ta-152 or Do 335 could have stood up to the Airforces of the Allies. As such also in an undeniable/necessary role as night-fighters.
The Allies where still using props in large numbers (probably in majority)during the Korea conflict 7/8 years after ww2. Only then and in the ongoing time the props vanished, caused maybe more due to the unstoppable persued path/goal of speed rather then technical or tactical advantage that a jet in the 40's or 50's was capable of.
Regards
Kruska
View attachment 62198
I think that by taking the hopeless situation of Nazi Germany in 45 into account, with all attention being focused on the "miracle" Wunderwaffen, there would have been no support or resources freed for "traditional" systems which might have prooven to be far more effective or would have been needed as a basic requirement/supplementary in order to ensure the effectivness of the jets. It would have taken at least another 2-4 years to develop the existing German jets into reliable cost/effecient prop-replacements.
Until then only props such as a Ta-152 or Do 335 could have stood up to the Airforces of the Allies. As such also in an undeniable/necessary role as night-fighters.
The Allies where still using props in large numbers (probably in majority)during the Korea conflict 7/8 years after ww2. Only then and in the ongoing time the props vanished, caused maybe more due to the unstoppable persued path/goal of speed rather then technical or tactical advantage that a jet in the 40's or 50's was capable of.
Regards
Kruska
View attachment 62198
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Piston engine aircraft stayed around in the post war years for a number of reasons; They were reliable; They were better on gas; the cost of operation still favored recips; spares were plentiful; there was ample fuel for them; there were many people available to maintain them; and for naval operations they offered better acceleration than early jets, essential for balked carrier landings. Piston engine aircraft were still being designed and deployed into the mid 50 until the jet caught up with reliability and efficiency.
Hello Flyboy,
yes I agree fully to your comment, and as such it supports my earlier expressed view, that props would have been an absolute necessity on the German side to enable the jets to perform.
So besides a planed Nightfighter version of the Ta-152, which other German prop besides a D0335 could have given that superior support in the Nightfighter role immediately?
Regards
Kruska
View attachment 62202
yes I agree fully to your comment, and as such it supports my earlier expressed view, that props would have been an absolute necessity on the German side to enable the jets to perform.
So besides a planed Nightfighter version of the Ta-152, which other German prop besides a D0335 could have given that superior support in the Nightfighter role immediately?
Regards
Kruska
View attachment 62202
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
That's not really correct, the Fw 190A-9, D-9, and the best models of Me 190 (G-10, K-4) were (at the ranges they operated at) a good match against most allied day fighters (mostly P-51's in a bomber intercept context context), and were better in some areas. And the 190 was as capable of being adapted to Night fighter as the Ta 152. And the Do 335 had other development problems.
The major problems with the Do 335 program was simply its own development, and not changing priorities. The Ta 152 was developing fairly rapidly, but it just started a bit late, looking at development progression there seems to be no hindrance due to priorities, in fact it, like the jets, was rushed in development which resulted in some reliability problems. (though the 152H did fairly well in its limited service)
While some of the development of the German super weapons obviously wasted resources, many lacked development interest early on (it wasn't till 1942 that the jet program got any real funding other than private, though there was support in '41) The offensive programs were a bit wasteful, particularly the V-2, the V-1 less so. (the V-1 being fairly cost effective, just used in a time when the focus should have been on defensive strategy)
One major advantage of jets that is not often realized is that unlike piston engine a/c running on the limited supplies of aviation gasoline, they used J2 fuel which was basically Diesel with some anti-gelling additives. This was in large supply even at the war's end, though the decimated transportation system made it difficult to get it anywhere. (the transport problem was compounded for piston engined a/c which already had a fuel shortage)
Hello kool kitty 89,
please don't get me wrong; indeed I admire and I even fancy a/c such as the Horten, 262 or Arado, but as you already mentioned these projects were neglected for too long.
What I try to point out is (just my personal opinion) that more efforts into the ongoing development into promising props such as a Ta or 335 would have paid of far more then putting these recources into a 163 or Heinkel Salamander or endlessly upgrading props like a 109 or persuing a 410. If I take the unreliable jet engines into account (which was known already in 1942) the urge to push a new generation of props would have paid of more.
So taking a Ta152 or 335 and its performance and armament into account, why should this a/c not provide more impact as a night-fighter then a 262 with burned out engines (after 20h) clinching at 450km with maybe one turbine still running?
Regards
Kruska
View attachment 62206
please don't get me wrong; indeed I admire and I even fancy a/c such as the Horten, 262 or Arado, but as you already mentioned these projects were neglected for too long.
What I try to point out is (just my personal opinion) that more efforts into the ongoing development into promising props such as a Ta or 335 would have paid of far more then putting these recources into a 163 or Heinkel Salamander or endlessly upgrading props like a 109 or persuing a 410. If I take the unreliable jet engines into account (which was known already in 1942) the urge to push a new generation of props would have paid of more.
So taking a Ta152 or 335 and its performance and armament into account, why should this a/c not provide more impact as a night-fighter then a 262 with burned out engines (after 20h) clinching at 450km with maybe one turbine still running?
Regards
Kruska
View attachment 62206
