Which was the best night fighter?

[brickhistory]

Just as an aside, chasing 'friendlies' was an occupational hazard for all night fighter crews, not just Widows and not excluding Mosquitoes The trick/skill was properly ID'ing the 'bogey.'

The squadron I'm most familiar with, the 417th NFS, once had one of its Beaus shot up when it intercepted a US B-25 at night. The Beau broke off after determining type (this usually meant that the interceptor had to get in fairly close and stay there for a fairly long time (considering it was potentially deadly to get that close due to return fire.)), but the B-25 crew opened up and shot out a Beau engine and the crew limped home. The B-25 crew claimed a Ju-88!

 

[Erich]

weird things happen, have the 415th and 416 nfs microf..........

now I have to check I might have the 417th nfs as well..........where did I put that. The squad histories were so limited that at least 2 of them are on one reel of film

let's face it for any RAF or Luftw as 2 examples Id'ing the enemy target is even bad enough on a cloudless night and even with a night fighters moon. Ace P. Spoden told me this as they would just put down 4-motor in their Flugbuch if it could not be properly confirmed as to the RAF bomber ID

 

[brickhistory]

You're right about the paucity of the squadrons' histories! The microfiche of the 414th is very spare, the 415th and 416th a bit better, and the 417th is pretty good.

I found all of them on different reels at the USAF Historical Research Center. Hope to have words here eventually on a book about these four squadrons.

 

[Erich]

I'd be interested in your book when published if you are committing to writing. Say what is on the 414th nfs reel if I may ask ? just their time of service in the Med or inclusion or seperate and in the ETO with the 422ndnfs ?

 

[brickhistory]

The reels contain the squadron's histories (sometimes written and dated after the fact!), usually in 6 month increments.

Some stuff that I can recall (I have it stored while I finish a Wild Weasel book) is a copy of the order establishing the squadron; daily reports in training; a chronology from their start in Florida, to shipping out to Britain via New York/Camp Kilmer, NJ, crossing on the QE, landing in Scotland.

Then the splitting of the various specialties to various RAF bases in the UK - pilots/crew chiefs to one base to convert to the Beau from the P-70 they trained on in the US, R/Os to another to learn from RAF instructors, the doc and medics to various stations to help out.

Monthly reports from North Africa, including sortie reports and aircraft accidents/losses, etc.

The period of crews going to augment the 422 in Belguim during Dec 44/Jan 45 is covered. Incidentally, 'my' guys, the 417th, also went there for the time frame but saw no action.

The microfiche also had some photos which are in the original files still at Maxwell; I hope to get copies later this summer.

 

[Erich]

looking forward to your findings .......... .

another question if I may : the number of the micro reel contained at hist. research center for the 414th or does it only come in sections of 4-6 units per micro reel ? Photos as well that is excellent !

Erich

 

[brickhistory]

I've only seen reels with numerous units on them.

 

[mhuxt]

my friend, greetings ! yes there was a date or two, it is actually confusing and will have to check back in the microfische of both US nfs as I (hopefully) marked the date. On at least 3 intercepts in the fall winter of 44-45 the 422nd nfs chased Mossies by accident

E ~

Heyas Erich:

I'd be grateful if you could have a squizzo when you get a spare second or two.

I was actually "fishing" a little bit, to see if you had anything which matched up with this tale:

BBC - WW2 People's War

Hmmm, link doesn't appear to work well - full story (from a 305 Sqn. pilot) is:

Back to night operations again on 8th April. My aircraft was unserviceable so I flew Mosquito Letter V 'borrowed' from F/Sgt Earie who was on leave (he never ceases to remind me that I lost his brand new aircraft) Details of this operation: after briefing we took off to patrol Leipzig, Berlin, Magdeburg, Braunsweig area. Owing to the distance from base and the length of time for the flight we had to carry wing tanks with extra fuel. On patrolling the Berlin Magdeburg road we saw some movement, circled round and dropped flares on what was enemy transport. We attacked with machine gun and cannon fire. Transport stopped and appeared damaged but the flares went out before we could assess the extent of the damage. Returning at economical cruising to save fuel and flying at 4,000 ft, at about 2.00 am we were attacked by a night fighter. It fired a long burst of cannon fire and I immediately took violent evasive action, however the port engine caught fire. Tony operated the fire extinguisher and I feathered the propeller. A further burst of gun fire and the starboard engine caught fire. I throttled back and operated the fire extinguisher, but as the fire did not go out, ordered Tony to bale out. He clipped on his parachute, jettisoned the door and successfully abandoned the aircraft. During this manoeuvre the aircraft was losing height rapidly. I struggled out of my seat, having some difficulty getting my left leg passed the control column, and pulling the seat pack of my parachute clear of the bucket seat, at the same time trying to keep on an even keel. With some difficulty I reached the door and dived through the opening. I pulled the rip cord as soon as I was clear of the aircraft and I hit the ground almost simultaneously.When Tony {Rudd} arrived back he was able to provide some interesting details of our last flight. He was able to pinpoint the location and time of our being, shot down. A US P61 Black Widow night fighter put in a combat report claiming to have shot down a JU88 at precisely the position and time of incident. British intelligence proved that there were no enemy aircraft in that vicinity at that time. The A.O.C., Air Vice Marshall Sir Basil Embry, was not happy that one of his aircraft had been shot down by 'friendly fire'. (Reg Everson)

Of course, I've no idea if the gent's memory is accurate or not ...

Cheers,

Mark

 

[Trautloft]

my fav. is the He219.
the mossie and the beaufighter been nice aswell.
i dont know much about japanese NF.
if you have more info about the operational history of the yokosuka p1y and the nakajima j1n,i would b glad.i know its not about NF but im also interested in
the heavy fighters like the Toryu or the ki.102'Randy' and their success or losses.

 

[Erich]

something is strange here.........why the Uhu He 219 ? nobody has a positive answer except from believing the myths created about this machine

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The He-219 was underpowered and had a very heavy wing load which meant poor maneuverability and turn radius.

The Ju-88G while not as fast, was certainly a better night fighter than the He-219.

I like the way the He-219 looks though, she a beautiful plane.

 

[Trautloft]

if the uhu entes production earlier and not only a few hundreds are equppied in only 4 NJG's, it would probably inflict heavier losses to the RAF. On the 'test flight' it shot down 5or7 Lancs if im right. the plane crashed while landing but the crew left unharmed. it was a nice introduction in my eyes. it scored against mossies aswell.i do not believe any myths ,only facts. if its put in service earlier,and not fallin as victim of unnecessary argues, its problems would surely fixed and it would become an even more lethal opponent for night bombers.immagine it in the hands of aces like lent or sayn-wittgenstein.at all the ju88g been the backbone among with me110's,true,but because both been a solid,tested,prooved construction,free of surprises.i dont say the uhu been invulnerable or superb. but if it hasnt an unlucky birth,probably many cities would escape their faith of turning into ash.its a beautiful plane.

 

[Erich]

sorry you are talking myth .................a huge what if. If it had been put into production earlier, but it wasn't simply. Streibs acct may or may not be true due to cross checking of RAF bomber losses.

it was only operative in I./NJG 1 only. NJG 3 had them but did not use them. NJGr 10 had 2 and they both had their backs broken. the stab had an a/c flown on 2 occassions but no kills. only 12 mossie kills by the Uhu not a very good standing especially when 10 (N)./JG 300 scored many more than that in their Bf 109G-6/AS's from August to November 44's end before they became II./NJG 11.

Imagine getting shot down by a Mossie nf and having to trust the ejection seats and hopeful your canopy blew off before you were catapulted through it which happened sadly several times to crews. Or having to try and bail out manually with those forward engine props turning evily on your sides ........ no thanks. Most of the Uhu's did not even have re-warning radar so were Mossie fodder

well on it goes, the Ju 88G-6 was well proven and worked rather well, the Bf 110G-4 was old news by 1945 standards

 

[lesofprimus]

Traut, trust me when I say this and learn something new... The information Erich is giving u ARE the facts, and his word and detailed information have a 100% standard...

That being said, the bird did not produce the desired results planned, nor was it a safe kite to fly... As Erich stated, the 88G-6 was the crem dela crem in 1945....

However, Schnaufer went on to acieve some remarkable results with the 110G and his Schräge Musik....

 

[Erich]

the Bf 110G-4 yes still did serve a purpose and Stab, II-IV./NJG 1 used the unit till wars end. Schnaufer was given the chance several times to used the Ju 88G-6 while in Stab./NJG 4 as the unit was equipped with the Junkers. Schnaufer carried over his 110G though and admitted not freely that he was afraid of the larger Ju a/c

I will admit as others here that the Uhu does have a mean look about it

but still think the Ju 88G-6 had a look as well

 

[Trautloft]

i trust you all,and id like to learn more,thats why im here.) thanks

 

[mhuxt]

Hiyas again:

Had another look at the books. If it was a P-61, the 414th detachment at Straßfeld would appear to be the culprit, as they apparently claimed a Ju 88 that night. The Mossie came down at Olpe, about 80km ENE of the USAAF base. No location for the P-61 claim given in my sources.

Anything on the 414th microfiche which might help? Brick?

Cheers,

Mark

Edited due to directional challenges - good thing I was never responsible for navigation ...

 

[Trautloft]

in my opinion the black widow isnt THE best NF since it entered service too late to play a significant role,just like the Me262B1/U1 or the Uhu. i consider the whole war,so planes which definately had a major part of night fighting been the mossie and the beau on the allied ,and the bf110g and ju88g on the axis side.

 

[brickhistory]

Unable to help re the 414th claim for the date of the Mossie shootdown.
The microfiche is at the USAF Historical Center; I do not have a copy of it (yet). Will be going this summer, hopefully.

Questions about the 417th, I can answer; about the others, I'll have to defer to those much more knowledgable.

Related but off this particular issue: reading a book "The Sky Suspended," RAF gent describes flying the radar-equipped Boston/Havoc night fighter in combat (not the Turbinlite). Since this is essentially what the P-70 was, one wonders why the USAAF still sent the 6th NFS to the Pacific with the P-70?

 

[Erich]

you bring up a good point Mark, probably was the 414th nfs. just looked over the copied 422nd m.f.

the same 414th crew that claimed a Ju 88 claimed a Me 410 the night before which is somewhat doubtful

8/9 April 1945 # 305 Polish Moissie Squadron Mosquito NT187 ........ SM-V shot down between Warburg and Köln at Olpe in the Sauerland.

the 422nd put up 4 a/c that night and 1 of these may have been a P-61 of the tag along 414th nfs

3 P-61's operated in the areas of Hoxter and Munden and probably all along the rivers for anything they could find- air or ground attack. hours from 2129 to 0310