Which was the best night fighter?

You do me an injustice, I did read your previous postings but the leap to believe that the Germans were close to introducing into service the technology you claim was just too much to accept.

The Fug 247/8 are presumably based on the technology of the Fug 240 of which only a handful of versions were made and installed, I believe that this was less than seventy five. So it isn't as if the Germans were flush with the capacity to develop and build significant improvements in any short time

The 247/8 I have only been aware as being projects. As someone who has been involved in the development of IT projects, will tell you that there is a whole heap of difference between being a project, and a product that is in production. I could be mistaken but I thought that Fug 247 was being developed for the Submarine service to be fitted in the new U Boats, I wasn't aware of any spare development for the Luftwaffe which would have brought considerable additional complexity. In particular making it smaller and dealing with power issues.

EG3 Elfe I have never heard of. That said the history of things firing at set ranges isn't good. Whilst on the topic have you found any more information about the infra red proximity fuse that was mentioned earlier? I have still to find any hint of one being even seriously considered by anyone.

I do agree with you in that the Village Inn system was interesting and clever. But it had other factors in its favour, It had been developed, tested, was in production and most importantly, it worked.

My guess which is a guess, is that the Germans were the best part of 12 months behind the allies. To use the example you gave:-
The Luftwaffe was developing telemetry to control the autopilot of a nightfighter and then have that nightfighters radar lock on to the target and trim the firing solution into the autopilot and fire the guns or rockets automatically
The above alone is likely to take a level of computer power which almost certainly didn't exit in the 1940's, at least at a level that could be installed in an aircraft.

Glider said:

The Luftwaffe was developing telemetry to control the autopilot of a nightfighter and then have that nightfighters radar lock on to the target and trim the firing solution into the autopilot and fire the guns or rockets automatically
The above alone is likely to take a level of computer power which almost certainly didn't exit in the 1940's, at least at a level that could be installed in an aircraft.

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Thats technology that was developed in the 1950s was made to work in the 1960s and made to work reliably in the 1970s

Glider said:

You do me an injustice, I did read your previous postings but the leap to believe that the Germans were close to introducing into service the technology you claim was just too much to accept.

The Fug 247/8 are presumably based on the technology of the Fug 240 of which only a handful of versions were made and installed, I believe that this was less than seventy five. So it isn't as if the Germans were flush with the capacity to develop and build significant improvements in any short time

The 247/8 I have only been aware as being projects. As someone who has been involved in the development of IT projects, will tell you that there is a whole heap of difference between being a project, and a product that is in production. I could be mistaken but I thought that Fug 247 was being developed for the Submarine service to be fitted in the new U Boats, I wasn't aware of any spare development for the Luftwaffe which would have brought considerable additional complexity. In particular making it smaller and dealing with power issues.

EG3 Elfe I have never heard of. That said the history of things firing at set ranges isn't good. Whilst on the topic have you found any more information about the infra red proximity fuse that was mentioned earlier? I have still to find any hint of one being even seriously considered by anyone.

I do agree with you in that the Village Inn system was interesting and clever. But it had other factors in its favour, It had been developed, tested, was in production and most importantly, it worked.

My guess which is a guess, is that the Germans were the best part of 12 months behind the allies. To use the example you gave:-
The Luftwaffe was developing telemetry to control the autopilot of a nightfighter and then have that nightfighters radar lock on to the target and trim the firing solution into the autopilot and fire the guns or rockets automatically
The above alone is likely to take a level of computer power which almost certainly didn't exit in the 1940's, at least at a level that could be installed in an aircraft.

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Ok, I've removed the accusation.

The Germans managed to get at least 100 microwave radars into service. Some authors in this area estimate 200 and as high as 400 based on production data but 100 is probably about right..

Most were FLAK radars like the interim "Rotterheim" which was a microwave set integrated into the Mannheim radar using the 3m Wurzburg Aerial or "FuMO 81" which was a PPI set for the German Navy used operationally on Torpedo boats and some capital ships such as Prinz Eugen. It was very useful in keeping a convoy together through a minefields in the Baltic.

The only airborne radar was the FuG 240/N3a Berlin radar (by Telefunken) of which 25 were delivered and 10 installed on Ju 88G6 (with Jumo 213A engines). This radar is directly related to the FuG 224 ground mapping radar copied from a captured H2S.

FuG 246 Bremen was a 3cm ground mapping radar undergoing testing and development by Siemens and FuG 247 Bremerhaven was a related airborne interception radar.

The Key to making these "Blind Fire" radars was to have conical scan and ideally auto track for the range gate. The Germans had been using conical scan since 1941 on Wurzburg and autolock since 1943 on the FuSE 63 Manheim radar. Autolock is quite good since both the Americans and Germans found it could track through jamming impossible for an operator to see through.

There was nothing stopping Telefunken from adding these features to a FuG 240 to produce a FuG 240"N5" though I think it was intended for FuG 244, whereas FuG 247 was by a different manufacturer.

The simple FuG 248 'range only' radar worked well with gyro sights thereby sparing the pilot the need to adjust the stedometric range finder. With the "Elfe" deivice added it could also be used to fire rockets and such at the correct range by taking into account range, air speed and target closure.

There is no issue with mechanical computers doing this job accurately.

fastmongrel said:

Thats technology that was developed in the 1950s was made to work in the 1960s and made to work reliably in the 1970s

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Systems like the SAGE which turned the F 106 into a remotely controlled missile launcher came into service in the 1950s because they were needed to deal with the speed of jets.
They also integrated multiple radars.

Gebbard Adders in his history of the German Night fighter force points out that the Luftwaffe was heading in this direction. The Luftwaffe wasn't far of doing this in WW2 because they needed it. Track lock radars existed in WW2, so did connecting the bombsight to the autopilot. So did mechanical computing mechanisms to get an intercept or to aim the guns, so did gyro sights. Its not a big jump to transmit a climb rate and heading to a night fighter autopilot by telemetry. The more advanced command guideance systems being developed for the frst SAM missiles such as Wasserfall used autopilots that controlled their heading rather than remote control that controlled their control surfaces/. The Luftwaffe desperately needed systems that were efficient and avoided the weaknesses of voice links. They were also anticipating 500 mph jet night fighters and had experienced the difficulty of slowing them down enough at the end to get an interception.

The mechanical computation tech of the day represented numbers as shaft turns, added and subtracted via differentials and used log/antilog cams to multiply/divide. There were trigonometric cams to compensate for parallax or convert to Cartesian. Time of Flight and Super elevation data was caste into 3D cams.

The Germans had the following telemetry like systems to transmit heading data to an autopilot
1 Ewald II was a midcourse correction guidance system for the V1. Heading data was sent via impulses and stored on a magnetic tape loop.
2 The German Blind Bombing system EGON suffered from jamming of its voice link so a Seduction Jam proof link was developed called Nachfee. It transmitted heading data via a dial and about 12 lamps.
3 Minerva on the V2 transmitted 64 parameters for testing.
4 FuG 510/FuG 540 Kogge/Brigge High Frequency 1200Mhz/25cm impulse
modulated using directional polyrod antenna was to be the core of a
number of German guided missiles with development starting in 1944.
It was designed to be very immune to jamming.

I only read the first page of posts, sorry, but is the consensus here really that the He-219 was a waste of time and inferior to the Ju-88 night fighter versions? That surprised me I must say.

Acheron said:

I only read the first page of posts, sorry, but is the consensus here really that the He-219 was a waste of time and inferior to the Ju-88 night fighter versions? That surprised me I must say.

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There was a lot of politics. Even allegations of corruption. It appears Erhardt Milch favoured the Ju 88 for its ease of production since it had time to evolve a very efficient production system. He favoured the Ta 154 "Moskito" as an aircraft capable of intercepting the DH Mosquito and made of wood and using an available engine. Heinkel countered that he could get productions cost down lower than Junkers after mass production started.. There was some hope, by Milch, that the Ta 154 could do the job with the Jumo 211N (a slightly evolved Jumo 211J) but this turned out to be a forlorn hope and the Jumo 213 was needed. The Jumo wasn't available till 1944. No surprise really given that the Merlin was running on 100/130 and approaching 1600 to 1700hp depending on version. The Ta 154 turned into a nothing burger due to the problems with the destruction of the tego film glue factory, problems the the wooden cockpit breaking in a crash. To fix these problems was getting to the point the jets Ar 234 and Me 262 would be entering service so it just seemed pointless.

The political push to promote the Ju 88 and Ta 154 sidelined the He 219. There were problems with the He 219 like gun flash from the wing guns. Also it really needed more power than 1750hp. That was becoming available in late 1944 (Jumo 213A with increased boost 1900hp, Jumo 213A with MW50 2100hp, DB603E with 1800hp, DB603LA 2250hp

He 219 was probably faster than the Ju 88G6/G7 with the same engine power.

Which was the best night fighter?


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I vote me, I have four kids to prove it.

The He 219 was a fine aircraft but it got too heavy rsulting in a high wing loading. That affected maneuverability and low speed flying characteristics. Not nice if you try to get an enemy from your tail.
Milch's interference in the development phase was not very helpful, with higher echolon support Heinkel could have made the aircraft better. Plus Heinkel tended to overdevelop aircraft, including a multitude of proposed/optional armaments instead of focussing on getting the basic aircraft to achieve the best possible performance.

Denniss said:

The He 219 was a fine aircraft but it got too heavy rsulting in a high wing loading. That affected maneuverability and low speed flying characteristics. Not nice if you try to get an enemy from your tail.
Milch's interference in the development phase was not very helpful, with higher echelon support Heinkel could have made the aircraft better. Plus Heinkel tended to overdevelop aircraft, including a multitude of proposed/optional armaments instead of focussing on getting the basic aircraft to achieve the best possible performance.

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Milch seems to have done alright but two failures stand out. His irascible attitude to Willy Messerschmitt and the conflict it caused and his championing of the Ta 154.

With the benefit of hindsight:
-The effort to develop the Ta 154 ended up a complete waste of time. It was a waste of time trying to make it out of wood to the degree it was as well.
-The effort to convert the Ju 252 (metal) into the Ju 352 (out of wood) was a complete waste of time. I know it was also a partial attempt to use the 323 engine but the lifting performance was terrible with that engine and would have needed the proposed BMW 801 engine version.
-Had the Fw 187 been developed as a single seater and then as a two seater with both seats facing forward the Luftwaffe would have had its Mosquito equivalent in 1939 though just not quite as big. The lightweight Neptune radars developed for single seater giving it its AI capability.

-The He 219 was the only German night fighter that could suffer an engine failure on take-off and still climb out. It had been designed in anticipation of the Jumo 222 engine but when that engine was delayed it was put into production with the DB603A which gave it a much lower performance. It was still about 15-20 mph faster than the Ju 88G6 with the same class of engine Jumo 213A (about 365mph versus 385mph, with radar and gun packs I'm not 100% sure If tried to find the data, Adders probably best)

However early 1945 the DB605LA of 2250hp is available and that engine with C3 fuel especially in its DB603L form can do 2400hp. That's 28% - 37% more rated power and probably 38% to 47% when the better power at altitude from the 2 sate supercharger is considered it was likely faster than the Jumo 222 version.

Of course the Do 335 and the Ju 388 were the only twin piston engine aircraft planed for 1945 which suggests they were making the same mistake again, albeit under pressure.

It seems the Luftwaffe actually killed of excellent aircraft in favour of hypothetical aircraft and ended up with nothing.

Making the He 162 wing out of wood was OK but they should've used metal for the tail surfaces to spare themselves the glue and structural issues.
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Koopernic said:

However early 1945 the DB605LA of 2250hp is available and that engine with C3 fuel especially in its DB603L form can do 2400hp.

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How many a/c were actually produced and entered service with this engine?

Fingers on one hand after a saw accident?

My vote goes to the boffins who developed the radars and the fairies that kept it working... and here's a question: just when did RDF become 'radar'... and whodunnit?

Koopernic said:

It seems the Luftwaffe actually killed of excellent aircraft in favour of hypothetical aircraft and ended up with nothing.

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Bomber B

Admiral Beez said:

Did the P-61 ever engage a target at night?

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My Dad did. He was the pilot of Midnight Mickey of the 6th NFS.

P-61A serial 42-5524 "Midnight Mickey" of the 6th NFS.

Fold3 Search

PVT Peter Dutkanicz, Hamden, CT - 6th Night Fighter Squadron, Saipan. Crew chief/gunner for LT McCumber's crew.
Flt Off Daniel L. Hinz, Milwaukee, WI - 6th Night Fighter Squadron, Saipan. Radar operator for LT McCumber's crew, he was officially credited with two confirmed aerial victories.
2LT Myrle W. McCumber, Colorado Springs, CO - 6th Night Fighter Squadron, Saipan. McCumber & his crew flew P-61A 42-5524 "Midnight Mickey." He was officially credited with two confirmed aerial victories.




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Acheron said:

Bomber B

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Bomber B (Ju 288) of course was cancelled due to the problems with the Jumo 222A1/B1 and Jumo 222A2/B2. The backup engine the DB606 (2 DB601) was also seen as a problem whereas the DB610 (2 x DB605) was seemingly OK in the Ju 288 by then it was too late to set up mass production. The Fw 191 probably was the only one of the Bomber B that might have worked since Fw had a 4 engine version using Jumo 211. Germany couldnt afford enough redundant programs.

Snautzer01 said:

P-61A serial 42-5524 "Midnight Mickey" of the 6th NFS.

Fold3 Search

PVT Peter Dutkanicz, Hamden, CT - 6th Night Fighter Squadron, Saipan. Crew chief/gunner for LT McCumber's crew.
Flt Off Daniel L. Hinz, Milwaukee, WI - 6th Night Fighter Squadron, Saipan. Radar operator for LT McCumber's crew, he was officially credited with two confirmed aerial victories.
2LT Myrle W. McCumber, Colorado Springs, CO - 6th Night Fighter Squadron, Saipan. McCumber & his crew flew P-61A 42-5524 "Midnight Mickey." He was officially credited with two confirmed aerial victories.



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View attachment 608113

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That my Dad in the middle top photo

Admiral Beez said:

Did the P-61 ever engage a target at night?

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As it have been said, yes.

Osprey Combat Aircraft have one volume about the P-61.

It get in combat in ETO, MTO & PTO.

Koopernic said:

Milch seems to have done alright but two failures stand out. His irascible attitude to Willy Messerschmitt and the conflict it caused and his championing of the Ta 154.

With the benefit of hindsight:
-The effort to develop the Ta 154 ended up a complete waste of time. It was a waste of time trying to make it out of wood to the degree it was as well.
-The effort to convert the Ju 252 (metal) into the Ju 352 (out of wood) was a complete waste of time. I know it was also a partial attempt to use the 323 engine but the lifting performance was terrible with that engine and would have needed the proposed BMW 801 engine version.
-Had the Fw 187 been developed as a single seater and then as a two seater with both seats facing forward the Luftwaffe would have had its Mosquito equivalent in 1939 though just not quite as big. The lightweight Neptune radars developed for single seater giving it its AI capability.

-The He 219 was the only German night fighter that could suffer an engine failure on take-off and still climb out. It had been designed in anticipation of the Jumo 222 engine but when that engine was delayed it was put into production with the DB603A which gave it a much lower performance. It was still about 15-20 mph faster than the Ju 88G6 with the same class of engine Jumo 213A (about 365mph versus 385mph, with radar and gun packs I'm not 100% sure If tried to find the data, Adders probably best)

However early 1945 the DB605LA of 2250hp is available and that engine with C3 fuel especially in its DB603L form can do 2400hp. That's 28% - 37% more rated power and probably 38% to 47% when the better power at altitude from the 2 sate supercharger is considered it was likely faster than the Jumo 222 version.

Of course the Do 335 and the Ju 388 were the only twin piston engine aircraft planed for 1945 which suggests they were making the same mistake again, albeit under pressure.

It seems the Luftwaffe actually killed of excellent aircraft in favour of hypothetical aircraft and ended up with nothing.

Making the He 162 wing out of wood was OK but they should've used metal for the tail surfaces to spare themselves the glue and structural issues.
-

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The He219 , required Jumo 222s to intercept the Mosquito. But , the Ju 88G with Jumos 222 would also be able to intercept the mosquito. So why introduce a new type only slightly faster than the cheap ju88? And i am not sure that it was any faster than the Ju88G6/7 and Ju388 . Which also carried an additional crew member
What LW was needing was a Mosqito killer using 1943 engines. That means that should be smaller and lighter . Ideally Fw 187. From the historically available aircraft , i would propose a cleaner Me 410 with GM1. Even better Do335 , if they could focus on the NF variant. He 219 , as Eric Brown wrote, simply did not had the required performance to justify its existence
The various 1945 piston engines are far too late. Also no C3 fuel was available for night fighters.

poprune said:

My vote goes to the boffins who developed the radars and the fairies that kept it working... and here's a question: just when did RDF become 'radar'... and whodunnit?

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According to Wiki the US Navy in 1940. Radar in World War II - Wikipedia t

Koopernic said:

Making the He 162 wing out of wood was OK but they should've used metal for the tail surfaces to spare themselves the glue and structural issues.

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Agree with your post Koopernic, but to be fair to the He 162, it was, being an emergency fighter, intended of being made of non-strategic materials to ease the supply of aluminium since the Germans were suffering shortages of raw materials (just like the Mosquito, oddly enough, although the British were not suffering an aluminium shortage when GdeH drew up the requirement for the aircraft), but in hindsight, a lack of adequate adhesive for wooden aircraft components was a little down the scale in terms of the wider issues affecting the German aircraft industry and the Reich in general, by the time the He 162 enters service.