Which was the more successful single engine dive bomber, the SBD, the JU-87 or D3A?

[Shortround6]

As far as being effective to a degree against other planes, weren't SBDs given CAP duty over the carriers, especially against the threat of torpedo bombers?

You are quite correct.
This factoid it trotted out in just about every thread that includes the SBD.

What seems to be left out is that CAP duty seems to have been performed either for one battle or once cruise into Japanese waters or was used for about 2 weeks by one or two carriers.
Take your pick,
I am open to correction but I don't think this was a standard practice by the whole carrier fleet or lasted past Midway. If it was even done at Midway.

 

[GrauGeist]

At Midway, when the Hiryu's strike force was detected inbound, the Yorktown sent up F4Fs and SBDs - the F4Fs as intercept and SBDs as CAP.

At the Battle of Coral Sea, SBDs were used as supplemental CAP.

When Doolittle's B-25s were prepping to launch, the Enterprise sent up SBDs as CAP and screen.

There's several other instances, but this provides an idea of how the Dauntless was used in that capacity early in the war.

 

[Admiral Beez]

As far as being effective to a degree against other planes, weren't SBDs given CAP duty over the carriers, especially against the threat of torpedo bombers?

Interestingly, the Fairey Barracuda didn't have any forward guns whatsoever. With its 240 mph top speed it was slower than the SBD, so not as useful in the CAP role. Too bad the intended Griffon-powered version wasn't developed. That model could have had a pair of 20mm cannons (my idea, not Fairey's).

 

[Admiral Beez]

Was the Loire-Nieuport LN.401 the "worst" carrier-borne dive bomber of them all?

Perhaps the Breda Ba.65 is a contender for worst single-engined dive bomber? Though the Brewster Buccaneer might be tops.

 

[GrauGeist]

Perhaps the Breda Ba.65 is a contender for worst single-engined dive bomber? Though the Brewster Buccaneer might be tops.

Give the Brewster Buccaneer (SB2A) a look. Out of the 700 or so built, many were scrapped outright without ever being used.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Give the Brewster Buccaneer (SB2A) a look. Out of the 700 or so built, many were scrapped outright without ever being used.

Which was the worst US aircraft maker, Brewster or Vultee? They look like candidates for government investigation.

 

[GrauGeist]

Brewster got in over their head during the war. Because of poor management and issues with the Union workers, the quality of their aircraft and production of the types suffered greatly. It also didn't help that their factory was small and antiquated, originally designed for horse-carriage and automobile manufacturing.
All of these factors resulted in their F3A Corsairs and SB2A Buccaneers being virtually unflyable garbage.

Vultee on the otherhand, did build solid aircraft, but the Vengeance was just a bit late to the scene in Europe for it's mission profile. It did serve well in the Pacific, especially with the RAAF, though.

 

[fastmongrel]

Perhaps the Breda Ba.65 is a contender for worst single-engined dive bomber? Though the Brewster Buccaneer might be tops.

The Ba65 was okay in 1939 it just got old very quickly. Perhaps you are thinking of the Breda Ba88 that was an absolute stinker and possibly the worst aircraft of the war. Breda Ba.88 - Wikipedia

 

[Vincenzo]

The Ba65 was okay in 1939 it just got old very quickly. Perhaps you are thinking of the Breda Ba88 that was an absolute stinker and possibly the worst aircraft of the war. Breda Ba.88 - Wikipedia

Actually i never thought to Ba.65 as dive-bomber,
and it's from 1937

 

[Admiral Beez]

Perhaps you are thinking of the Breda Ba88 that was an absolute stinker and possibly the worst aircraft of the war.

Hmm.... Breda Ba.88 vs. Blackburn Botha. That would be fun.

 

[RCAFson]

As far as being effective to a degree against other planes, weren't SBDs given CAP duty over the carriers, especially against the threat of torpedo bombers?

At Coral Sea 23 SBDs were allocated to Low CAP to intercept IJN TBs. They lost 5 SBDs in air to air combat and shot down 1 Val and 5 Kates.

 

[fastmongrel]

Hmm.... Breda Ba.88 vs. Blackburn Botha. That would be fun.

For who definitely not the pilots. I think if I was given either to fly I would try and have an accident on the taxi way.

 

[RCAFson]

At Midway, when the Hiryu's strike force was detected inbound, the Yorktown sent up F4Fs and SBDs - the F4Fs as intercept and SBDs as CAP.

At the Battle of Coral Sea, SBDs were used as supplemental CAP.

When Doolittle's B-25s were prepping to launch, the Enterprise sent up SBDs as CAP and screen.

There's several other instances, but this provides an idea of how the Dauntless was used in that capacity early in the war.

Yorktown didn't use SBDs for CAP at Midway, according to Lundstrom's First Team.

 

[GrauGeist]

Yorktown didn't use SBDs for CAP at Midway, according to Lundstrom's First Team.

As soon as the attackers had been picked up on Yorktown's radar at about 1329, she discontinued fueling her CAP fighters on deck and swiftly cleared for action. Her returning dive bombers were moved from the landing circle to open the area for antiaircraft fire. The Dauntlesses were ordered aloft to form a CAP.

Source:
"Yorktown" Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships. Navy Department, Naval History and Heritage Command.

 

[RCAFson]

Source:
"Yorktown" Dictionary of American Naval Fighting Ships. Navy Department, Naval History and Heritage Command.

Yorktown didn't launch any SBDs in response to either IJN strike. The SBDs returning from their strike were ordered to clear the AA zone during the first IJN strike and might have acted against TBs, but there was none in the first IJN strike, and all had landed on Enterprise or Hornet by the time of the IJN 2nd strike, which was a TB strike. No SBDs were launched by Hornet or Enterprise. against the 2nd IJN strike.

 

[swampyankee]

I'd argue the SBD was the most successful, in that it fought on the winning side.

The SBD and the D3A were also fighting a very different war than the Ju87, which was primarily used for tactical support of ground forces. While the D3A and SBD certainly did so, it was not their primary role.

For all of them, their ability (or lack thereof) in fighter-fighter combat or air combat against other attack aircraft is a side issue.

One of the reasons I tend to dislike these "most successful" or "best" threads is that one needs to 1) define what one means by either "most successful" or "best," and 2) apply corrections for the number of aircraft involved, the tactical environment in which they operated, and training.

 

[GrauGeist]

Yorktown didn't launch any SBDs in response to either IJN strike. The SBDs returning from their strike were ordered to clear the AA zone during the first IJN strike and might have acted against TBs, but there was none in the first IJN strike, and all had landed on Enterprise or Hornet by the time of the IJN 2nd strike, which was a TB strike. No SBDs were launched by Hornet or Enterprise. against the 2nd IJN strike.

Regardless how you spin it, there were indeed SBDs in place as CAP during the Hiryu's first (13:30) strike.

Only a handful of F4Fs were available to defend Yorktown during the second (16:00) strike.

 

[SaparotRob]

I'd argue the SBD was the most successful, in that it fought on the winning side.

The SBD and the D3A were also fighting a very different war than the Ju87, which was primarily used for tactical support of ground forces. While the D3A and SBD certainly did so, it was not their primary role.

For all of them, their ability (or lack thereof) in fighter-fighter combat or air combat against other attack aircraft is a side issue.
One of the reasons I tend to dislike these "most successful" or "best" threads is that one needs to 1) define what one means by either "most successful" or "best," and 2) apply corrections for the number of aircraft involved, the tactical environment in which they operated, and training.

What I like about these threads is the discussion about the aircraft by knowledgeable people. I like the SBD (as well as a bunch of other aircraft). I have my prejudices and impressions of aircraft. Here, I can see how wrong or right I was. I'd like Schweik to expand on his opinion on the Baltimore in the MTO. I'd like to know more about that choice. That's one of the great things here. Stuff comes up that I would've never thought to ask.
BTW the B-17 rules!

 

[SaparotRob]

Oops. For a second I thought I was on the "Top ten Allied bombers" thread.

 

[Bataan Jerry]

In fact, none of the 6 x SBDs that encountered the Zeros made it back to any USN carrier or base and all 6 aircraft and their aircrew were lost.

Interesting fact I've not seen before. Thanks. Were they lost from the Zero attack or ditched at sea? Source please?