While Ernst Heinkel and his company are remembered chiefly for his long-serving He111

[davebender]

I agree and it appears to me the Fw-187 would have been superior to the P-38 below 7,000 meters. Similiar engine power in a smaller and lighter airframe. The same reason the Me-109 single engine fighter was so dominant below 7,000 meters.

 

[Siegfried]

I agree and it appears to me the Fw-187 would have been superior to the P-38 below 7,000 meters. Similiar engine power in a smaller and lighter airframe. The same reason the Me-109 single engine fighter was so dominant below 7,000 meters.

I suspect the DB605DCM and DB605ASM (with over sized superchargers) would have found their way into the FW 187 around early 1944 and pushed its envelope about 10,000ft higher. (PS I think its capitalised Focke-Wulf FW.)

Not sure of the range of the FW 187, suspect just over 650 miles at maximum cruise, so combat radius of about 220 miles (with reserves and fighting reserves) without drop tanks and about 330 miles with drop tanks. Other mission profiles would have 3 drop tanks for extended protective loitre above submarines in the bay of biscay or strike missions with a single 250kg bomb (which would hardly degrade speed) and two drop tanks.

 

[davebender]

If FW-187s are escorting bombers they will be flying at minimum cruise. Under such circumstances I suspect FW-187s would have a combat radius greater then He-111 bombers they are protecting.

 

[Milosh]

(PS I think its capitalised Focke-Wulf FW.)

GL/C-E2 for the 190
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/190a5-datasheet.jpg

Focke-Wulf data sheets,
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/190a5-level-20-10-43.jpg
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/190a5-climb-20-10-43.jpg

Note upper case 'F' and lower case 'w'.

 

[Denniss]

AFAIR the only company permitted to use two uppercase letters was Blohm Voß

 

[nuuumannn]

...And, while we are on the subject of German designations; there are no dashes or dots between the letter and numerical figures, just a space; e.g Bf 109, NOT Bf-109 or Bf.109. As far as I know Focke Wulf was always "Fw". The Flug Werk aircraft are "FW 190s", however.

 

[zoomar]

It never ceases to amaze me that people seem to think that producing the Bf-109 rather than the He-112 or He-100 was a mistake. The Bf-109 is one of the greatest airplanes of all time that remained at the forefront of fighter development for almost 10 years. In comparison, the He-112 was obsolescent in its initial form and probably far less amenable to development in its final He-112B form. The He-100 was faster, but was also form-fitted around its engine and evaporative cooling. By the time the He-100 was around the Fw-190 was on order - and the Fw-190 was by far more versatile. With the 109 and 190 in service, it's hard to imagine why on earth Germany would have benefitted by having the He-112 or He-100 in service as well (or instead)

 

[davebender]

Bf-109 is one of the greatest airplanes of all time that remained at the forefront of fighter development for almost 10 years.

I agree. Willy Messerschmitt produced a masterpiece that was effective and dirt cheap to mass produce. All you could ask for in a WWII era lightweight fighter aircraft.

In comparison, the He-112 was obsolescent in its initial form and probably far less amenable to development in its final He-112B form.

Several nations wanted to purchase He-112Bs so the aircraft must have been pretty good.

IMO RLM was insane to deny DB601 engines to Heinkel. Foreign purchases would have kept He-112B production line open. Commercial competition would force Messerschmitt to keep Me-109 state of the art. Otherwise RLM will consider purchasing a newer version of the Heinkel fighter aircraft.

 

[Gixxerman]

Will this myth never die?

The thing is Dave, if you look at German armaments production overall (it applies just as much to tanks as aircraft) it is true, even if exceptions were planned and periodically made.

 

[zoomar]

Several nations wanted to purchase He-112Bs so the aircraft must have been pretty good.

IMO RLM was insane to deny DB601 engines to Heinkel. Foreign purchases would have kept He-112B production line open. Commercial competition would force Messerschmitt to keep Me-109 state of the art. Otherwise RLM will consider purchasing a newer version of the Heinkel fighter aircraft.

I'll agree that, after virtual redesign the He-112B was a "pretty good" fighter, but not really any better than the Bf-109s that were already entering service. Well, OK the wide track gear and all-round vision canopy were improvements. Yes, when offered for export, several countries wanted to buy them and I'll even acknowledge that a Spanish 112B downed a USAAF P-38 the strayed into Spanish airspace during the war (be interested to know if the Yank was sleeping behind the wheel). However, the only potential export buyer who actually had their own first-rate aircraft industry (Japan) rejected the He-112B as completely unsuitable.

You may be right that later versions of the 112 could have had the legs of the Messerschmitt, but we'll never know. Since the Bf-109K was still a pretty good fighter in 1945, I find it hard to believe that a hypothetica 1944-vintage "He-112H" powered by a DB 603 with improved armor and armament, a redesigned longer span wing to handle the increased weight, and other improvements would be any better. Then one comes back to the basic RLM philosophy, why build two basically identical airplanes using the same engine when one would do? We know the RLM chose extremely wisely with the 109. If the either-or decision had gone the other way in 1936, the Luftwaffe might have been stuck with the functional equivalent of the Hurricane, MS-405, or P-40 and sorely missed the Bf-109.

 

[DonL]

the only potential export buyer who actually had their own first-rate aircraft industry (Japan) rejected the He-112B as completely unsuitable.

The Ki 61 is near a direct copy of the He 112 with some elements of the He 100.
So the He 112 can't be this unsuitable.

For the rest I totaly agree, but I think the He 112 had potential, because it had a bigger fuselage, so it can carry more cooling and fuel and would be better with the bigger engines, but that's my personal opinion.

 

[davebender]

Because friendly nations are paying 100% of development and production cost. What does Germany have to lose?

 

[zoomar]

The Ki 61 is near a direct copy of the He 112 with some elements of the He 100.
So the He 112 can't be this unsuitable.

For the rest I totaly agree, but I think the He 112 had potential, because it had a bigger fuselage, so it can carry more cooling and fuel and would be better with the bigger engines, but that's my personal opinion.

About the only thing in common between the Ki-61 and He-112B was the engine. If anything, what the Japanese learned from the He-112B was how NOT to design a DB powered fighter to meet their expectations (which included light wing loadings and high maneuverability). Perhaps a better case can be made that the He-100 influenced the design of the He-61 (at least the two planes look similar), but this can probably also be overemphasized.

You may be right that the larger size of the He-112's fuselage could have accommodated bigger engines and more equipment that the Bf-109 without all the bulges associated with the Bf-109G. However, I wonder how the thick, short-span, elliptical wing of the He-112B could have handled the increased weight without ruining completely the airplane's handling qualities.

 

[DonL]

Are we talking about the same a/c's?

He 112 A-0 V4:
Length: 9.0 m (29 ft 5⅜ in); Wingspan: 11.5 m (37 ft 8¾ in); Height: 3.7 m (12 ft 1⅝ in); Wing area: 23.2 m²; Wing loading: 102.5 kg/m
He 112 B-2:
Length: 9.22 m (30 ft 11 7/8 in); Wingspan: 9.09 m (29 ft 9¾ in); Height: 3.82 m (12 ft 6¾ in); Wing area: 17 m² (183 ft²); Wing loading: 132 kg/m² (27.1 lb/ft²)

He 100 D1
Length: 8.2 m (26 ft 11 in); Wingspan: 9.4 m (30 ft 10 in); Height: 3.6 m (11 ft 10 in); Wing area: 14.6 m2 (157 sq ft); Wing loading: 171,23 kg/m²

Bf 109 D1: (Jumo engines)
Length: 8.64 m (28 ft 7 in); Wingspan: 9.87 m (32 ft 4 in); Height: 2.60 m (8 ft 2 in); Wing area: 16.20 m² (174.9 ft²); Wing loading: 133,95 kg/m²

Bf 109E:
Length: 8.64 m (28 ft 7 in); Wingspan: 9.87 m (32 ft 4 in); Height: 2.60 m (8 ft 2 in); Wing area: 16.20 m² (174.9 ft²); Wing loading: 154,62 kg/m²

Ki 61:
Length: 8.94 m (29 ft 4 in); Wingspan: 12.00 m (39 ft 4 in); Height: 3.70 m (12 ft 2 in); Wing area: 20.00 m² (215.28 ft²); Wing loading: 173.5 kg/m² (35.5 lb/ft²)

If we imply that the He 112 add 350kg with the DB 601 engine (weight gain Bf 109D1 to Bf 109E was 335kg) the He 112 would have a wing loading of: 152,82 kg/m².

So I can't see your argumentation! The He 100D and the Bf 109E couldn't reach the wingloading of the He 112 even though the He 112 was the largest a/c. The 112 was much more "japanese like" then the Bf 109 or He 100!
From all I can see the Ki 61 has much more in common with the He 112 then with the He 100

 

[davebender]

What do you think about the He-118 dive bomber? To me it looks quite a bit like a larger He-112B. Nicely streamlined and relatively light in weight. Makes me wonder if the He-118 could have developed into a long range fighter aircraft powered by a DB603 engine.


He-118 Dive Bomber.

He-112B Fighter.

 

[nuuumannn]

The Ki 61 is near a direct copy of the He 112 with some elements of the He 100.

Well, you can compare figures all you like, but the Ki-61 is nowhere near a direct copy of the He 112, not structurally, nor conceptually. Nothing of the sort and the Heinkel played no part in the Japanese aircraft's design. There was a German connection however, a very strong one in that the designers, Takeo Doi and Shin Owada were heavily influenced by the work of Dr Richard Vogt, who later became the chief designer of Blohm und Voss. The fact that it was a very un-Japanese aircraft can be put down to Vogt's influence, but also to reports from Europe that reached Japan about the predominant use of in-line engines in fighters in combat in Europe in 1940. From what I've read, the Japanese didn't like the Heinkel fighter, so why would they base an indigenous design on an aeroplane they dismissed?

The He 118, however was different and it played a part in the design of the exceptional Yokosuka D4Y dive bomber, in fact the Japanese were intending on placing a naval derivative of the Heinkel into production until one's wings came off in a dive. Even the Aichi D3A, the predecessor to the D4Y was influenced by Heinkel aircraft; the He 70's elliptical wings inspired Aichi's designers to fit their dive bomber with elliptical wings.

 

[nuuumannn]

Makes me wonder if the He-118 could have developed into a long range fighter aircraft powered by a DB603 engine.

A bit like a Fulmar perhaps? It looks a bit like a slightly more elegant Fairey Battle.

 

[nuuumannn]

A while ago, Dave, you put up a thread on the He 162, a neat little fighter and one of the boldest of Heinkel's designs, but my favourite of the Heinkels is the rather lovely looking He 70 Blitz - in its original civilian fast transport guise, without all the military stuff that weighed it down and spoiled its looks. The very early He 111C passenger aircraft were also very pretty looking machines, among the most elegant of mid 1930s passenger planes.

 

[zoomar]

A bit like a Fulmar perhaps? It looks a bit like a slightly more elegant Fairey Battle.

The Fulmar abd Battle? Sounds like damning with faint praise. However, I too have thought the He-118 was a beautiful plane that should have faired better. I believe Udet almost killed himself by making a mistake testing it and this no doubt sealed the selection of the Ju-87. From what I've read the 87 was certainly a better dive bomber than the 118, but the Heinkel would seem to have a been much better suited for a variety of roles and progressive modifications to improve performance. At least it was a more modern concept.

 

[zoomar]

A while ago, Dave, you put up a thread on the He 162, a neat little fighter and one of the boldest of Heinkel's designs, but my favourite of the Heinkels is the rather lovely looking He 70 Blitz - in its original civilian fast transport guise, without all the military stuff that weighed it down and spoiled its looks. The very early He 111C passenger aircraft were also very pretty looking machines, among the most elegant of mid 1930s passenger planes.

Now to talk about what ifs, what about the He-119? Possibly the most beautiful and streamlined of all the Heinkel designs and extremely advanced as well. If the Luftwaffe wanted a fast bomber or an intruder that could outrun intercepting fighters, the 119 sure looks the part.