Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
My Pre-wife, who is Jewish, says "Jew" is appropriate as long as its not used in a derogatory way. There are far worse terms for someone who is Jewish.
‘While Jews serve in my army I will not allow their deportation’
- Thread starter Timppa
- Start date
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buffnut453
Captain
Jew is a shortening of Judah, one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Ten of the tribes were scattered when the Babylonians sacked Jerusalem. The other 2 tribes, Judah and Benjamin, effectively merged into one. Jewish friends of mine refer to themselves as "Jews" and "Jewish" so I don't see it being derogatory in any way, at least not in the manner it's been used in this thread.
Yes Buffnutt, that's what I thought and that's why I'm curious what Mike has to say. I think he didn't just say that. In wiki:
But we're hijacking this good thread which was about jews/hebrew/jiddish people in Finland.
But I must say that while I think my English is pretty good, I don't really follow what it says. I believe it says that some people find the word jew offensive in any way.
But we're hijacking this good thread which was about jews/hebrew/jiddish people in Finland.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Marcel, it's basically saying that using the word Jew in certain instances could be considered offensive, but in situations like this thread, it's perfectly fine...so while Mike did have a valid point to a certain degree, it's perfectly fine in this case.
And yes, this is an informative thread, looking forward to hearing more about the Jews in Finnish service
And yes, this is an informative thread, looking forward to hearing more about the Jews in Finnish service
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
My question is, who cares about being PC!!??
There was also a Jewish Brigade within the British Army late in the war. I think this brigade was mostly made up of Palestinian Jews and not Brits though, before this brigades creation there were a number of Palestinian units in British service but this was before only Arabs were referred to as Palestinians and so these troops were actually what we would call today Israeli. There is a some controversy around this brigade as it was involved with the execution of German prisoners without trial and also in the creation of the State of Israel.
syscom3
Pacific Historian
There was no controversy. As the evidence of the genocide was coming to the forefront, they began executed members of the SS as they were found. And they were universally applauded for it. Especially by the people who had been under the thumb of occupation.
There is controversy amongst those who believe that prisoners should not be shot without trial.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"..There is controversy amongst those who believe that prisoners should not be shot without trial."
A number of German Special Forces were deployed in the first hours of the Battle of the Bulge (Dec. '44) dressed as G.I.s. When captured,they were executed.
There was no controversy here .... only a little compassion by the US authorities ... the captured were allowed to live one night longer to hear German nurses singing Christmas carols.
This thread has been high jacked by one who seeks attention. No one has ever misused the word Jew on this forum, in my 4 years experience. Misuse being disrespectful or hurtful use, not correct usage as a noun or adjective.
A number of German Special Forces were deployed in the first hours of the Battle of the Bulge (Dec. '44) dressed as G.I.s. When captured,they were executed.
There was no controversy here .... only a little compassion by the US authorities ... the captured were allowed to live one night longer to hear German nurses singing Christmas carols.
This thread has been high jacked by one who seeks attention. No one has ever misused the word Jew on this forum, in my 4 years experience. Misuse being disrespectful or hurtful use, not correct usage as a noun or adjective.
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The German soldiers captured wearing American uniforms were given trials
A captured German spy was the last person to be executed at the Tower of London in 1941, a number of others were also hanged at two other locations following trial, from memory however I think the majority of captured agents were turned and used as double agents. I know this is way of topic, but I am uneasy about executing foreign nationals from enemy countries for spying during wartime as to me spying is an acceptable part of warfare, should the spy be a traitor operating against his own country then he deserves all he gets in my mind though. The Germans in American uniforms were armed for the purpose of killing American troops so maybe they didn't have this defence, but looking at it from the point of view of the captured Germans this was also a trick used by British commandoes and I assume on occasion also Americans, my point is we are not happy about our own lads being shot under these circumstances.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"....The Germans in American uniforms were armed for the purpose of killing American troops so maybe they didn't have this defense, but looking at it from the point of view of the captured Germans this was also a trick used by British commandoes ..."
During his trial after the war, Otto Skorzeny, the Austrian special forces leader who was responsible for the German "deception" received a boost (and was cleared) in part by the testimony of Yeo Thomas, a British agent who had been operating in France, captured and tortured by the Gestapo. Thomas testified that British commandos had used similar deceptions .... and he was a man who had lost finger nails and more to the Germans.
But lets get back to Finland. The Jews serving in the Finish forces were professionals and patriots. They had seen what the Soviets had done to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania ..... occupation and mass deportations. And everyone knew what the over-reaching threat was.
During his trial after the war, Otto Skorzeny, the Austrian special forces leader who was responsible for the German "deception" received a boost (and was cleared) in part by the testimony of Yeo Thomas, a British agent who had been operating in France, captured and tortured by the Gestapo. Thomas testified that British commandos had used similar deceptions .... and he was a man who had lost finger nails and more to the Germans.
But lets get back to Finland. The Jews serving in the Finish forces were professionals and patriots. They had seen what the Soviets had done to Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania ..... occupation and mass deportations. And everyone knew what the over-reaching threat was.
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
Not to flagellate an equine cadaver but as an exercise in the subtleties of english semantics for non-native English speakers (and perhaps I should include Americans in this?).
A jew is one who practices or espouses the jewish faith. This would include those who successfully convert to the jewish faith. To be jewish is to be from that group but not necessarily a jew. Thus I am jewish, but not a jew. As is the priest who baptised my children and the bishop who ordained that priest.
I suspect the original concern is due to the misuse of the term 'jew' as a derogatory one by anti-semites whereas it is as honourable as christian, muslim, hindu, buddhist, taoist etc. or indeed atheist or agnostic.
As the late Dave Allen used to say at the close of his programmes, 'Goodnight, and may your God go with you'.
A jew is one who practices or espouses the jewish faith. This would include those who successfully convert to the jewish faith. To be jewish is to be from that group but not necessarily a jew. Thus I am jewish, but not a jew. As is the priest who baptised my children and the bishop who ordained that priest.
I suspect the original concern is due to the misuse of the term 'jew' as a derogatory one by anti-semites whereas it is as honourable as christian, muslim, hindu, buddhist, taoist etc. or indeed atheist or agnostic.
As the late Dave Allen used to say at the close of his programmes, 'Goodnight, and may your God go with you'.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
From what I've read, the Poles had a substantial Jewish presence in their military, numbering about 100,000 at the time the Germans invaded. In the Free Polish army, about 20,000 served in it's ranks.
I believe that's correct.
silence
Senior Airman
Interesting discourse on the subtleties of semantics.
Let's look at it from a different angle: many of you served in uniform and follow some branch of the Christian faith. Does that you are Christian soldiers. Or are you soldiers who are also/happen to be Christian?
Was the Jewish Brigade a brigade of the Jewish faith, or was a brigade for followers of the Jewish faith?
Are these men defined first as soldier, or first by their faith?
Can a Jewish Brigade include Christians? Can Christians be in a brigade of Jews?
Re-reading Timppa's first post, it sounds like the ones in the Finnish Army were Jews first and Finns second, so in this case we have Jewish Soldiers.
The same can be asked of soldiers. Why is it always "Nazi soldiers"? Were they all Nazis? Were von Treskow and Von Stauffenberg Nazis? On the other hand, were all Americans "Democrat Soldiers"? All UK soldiers "Conservative Soldiers"?
Do politics and/or religion really have a place in how a combatant is defined. Why Does it have to be Nazi/Democrat/Conservative German/American/Brit? What's wrong with just German or American or British? Why this need for a second word? Is it because of the special circumstances of the war against the Third Reich? Is it simply a means to denigrate an enemy soldier in a more polite way than calling them Kraut or Gook or Frog?
Man, I have been force-fed way too much philosophy in school this semester....
Let's look at it from a different angle: many of you served in uniform and follow some branch of the Christian faith. Does that you are Christian soldiers. Or are you soldiers who are also/happen to be Christian?
Was the Jewish Brigade a brigade of the Jewish faith, or was a brigade for followers of the Jewish faith?
Are these men defined first as soldier, or first by their faith?
Can a Jewish Brigade include Christians? Can Christians be in a brigade of Jews?
Re-reading Timppa's first post, it sounds like the ones in the Finnish Army were Jews first and Finns second, so in this case we have Jewish Soldiers.
The same can be asked of soldiers. Why is it always "Nazi soldiers"? Were they all Nazis? Were von Treskow and Von Stauffenberg Nazis? On the other hand, were all Americans "Democrat Soldiers"? All UK soldiers "Conservative Soldiers"?
Do politics and/or religion really have a place in how a combatant is defined. Why Does it have to be Nazi/Democrat/Conservative German/American/Brit? What's wrong with just German or American or British? Why this need for a second word? Is it because of the special circumstances of the war against the Third Reich? Is it simply a means to denigrate an enemy soldier in a more polite way than calling them Kraut or Gook or Frog?
Man, I have been force-fed way too much philosophy in school this semester....
silence
Senior Airman
I believe that in 1939 there were approx. 3M Jews living in Poland. Seems they'd almost have to have a substantial presence.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
In the ranks of the regular German military, you had Germans of all walks of life. Sure there were Nazis, but not all. Same goes for American troops, you had Jews, Christians, Athiests...people from all walks of life.
Same can be said for the Finns, Poles, English, Russians and so on. Everyday people who had thier own religious and political ideas, worried about thier family and buddies and wanted an end to the war so they could go home.
So basically, the Jews that served in the Finnish army were Finns that happened to follow Judiasm. Just like the Jews that served under the Kaiser in WWI were Imperial German Soldiers that happened to follow Judiasm.
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"...Man, I have been force-fed way too much philosophy in school this semester...."
With care you can reverse that medical condition ....
With care you can reverse that medical condition ....
