Who Shot Down the Most Aces in WW2?
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drgondog
Major
I would be very very curious as to whom the '7' might be. There were very few Mustang aces shot down air to air in the ETO. Most aces shot down were downed by flak. My father's group had zero (aces) shot down air to air - two to flak
It would be important to first establish that he shot down one - much less seven by matching units and times of his claims? Do you have the dates and locations, as well as the Staffel he was flying in?
Regards,
Bill
It would be important to first establish that he shot down one - much less seven by matching units and times of his claims? Do you have the dates and locations, as well as the Staffel he was flying in?
Regards,
Bill
Pong
Staff Sergeant
I'm with Bill, most aces were shot down by triple-A.
George Preddy, for instance, was killed by friendly-fire from an anti-aircraft battery while pursuing several German fighters over Belgium.
AAA is the most likely reason that many aces were killed, since they had a lot of combat experience and could (possibly) get out of a deadly air-to-air situation with a foe.
George Preddy, for instance, was killed by friendly-fire from an anti-aircraft battery while pursuing several German fighters over Belgium.
AAA is the most likely reason that many aces were killed, since they had a lot of combat experience and could (possibly) get out of a deadly air-to-air situation with a foe.
Erich
the old Sage
he was an ace with JG 27 over the Afrika cont. battling P-40's and Hurri's. he had no chance ever of facing P-47's and P-51's as he was killed in 1942.
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- #6
Otto Schulz flew in 2./JG 27 4./JG 27 the aces he shot down were all in North Africa 1941-1942.
between 20 Oct 30 Nov 1941 he shot down
Pilot Officer Neville Duke .28
Sergeant Alan Cameron (6.5 victories)
15 dec 1941
Pilot Officer Geoffrey Ranger (5 victories)
15 February 1942
RAF Ernest "Imshi" Mason(15)
11 Jan 1942
Australian Flying Officer "Nicky" Barr (11 victories)
31 May 1942
Major Andrew Duncan (5.5 victories)
17 June 1942
claiming his 51st and last kill Flight Lieutenant Walter "Wally" Conrad (6.5 victories)
same day he was killed by Canadian ace James "Stocky" Edwards
here are listed kills for pilots of JG/27 hope its a bit more usefull.
Jagdgeschwader 27 - JG 27
between 20 Oct 30 Nov 1941 he shot down
Pilot Officer Neville Duke .28
Sergeant Alan Cameron (6.5 victories)
15 dec 1941
Pilot Officer Geoffrey Ranger (5 victories)
15 February 1942
RAF Ernest "Imshi" Mason(15)
11 Jan 1942
Australian Flying Officer "Nicky" Barr (11 victories)
31 May 1942
Major Andrew Duncan (5.5 victories)
17 June 1942
claiming his 51st and last kill Flight Lieutenant Walter "Wally" Conrad (6.5 victories)
same day he was killed by Canadian ace James "Stocky" Edwards
here are listed kills for pilots of JG/27 hope its a bit more usefull.
Jagdgeschwader 27 - JG 27
drgondog
Major
How do we know who precisely he shot down and that he is the only one possible?
BTW - apologise that I mistook '51 victories' for Mustang (P-51), I now understand his claims totaled 51.
Erich
the old Sage
well that is the problem Bill, even over the broad landscape of Afrika the air battles still were swirling around, Marseille even added to or had his confirmed kills added to by his wingman or another in his staffel, just the way it was. Priens histories explain further and even the times for many JG 27 pilots were the same or similar plus locations in same area and does leave a person scratching their heads in wonderment. I have been studying JG 27 for over 40 years and I still do not get where the placement of who shot down whom comes in or even the other JG's during the war. . . . . too many variables
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- #9
excuse me im new to this so sorry if some of my questions sound stupid or childish
so it would be highly unlikely that Otto Schulz shot most of these guys down?
I always thought the Luftwaffe kept pretty close to accurate records with their pilots kills loss (except when presenting it to Hermann Göring of course then they would modify the losses)
so it would be highly unlikely that Otto Schulz shot most of these guys down?
I always thought the Luftwaffe kept pretty close to accurate records with their pilots kills loss (except when presenting it to Hermann Göring of course then they would modify the losses)
Hello Gepp
I'd say, it possible that Otto Schulz shot down all those aces mentioned. He was a very skilful fighter pilots as shown on 15 Feb 42 when he shot down Imshi Mason and 3 others singlehandedly over his a/f.
During the early part of WWII Germans' claim accuracy was usually good/very good but it deteriorated later. And II/JG 27 had a case where one Schwarm fabricated claims and was caught red-handed. The only punishment was that the Schwarm was dispersed, none of its members lost any kills. Oh, the leader of the Schwarm was killed during a test flight soon after their cheat was exposed. Accident, suicide, murder? IMHO probably one of the first two, IMHO the leadership of JG 27 could have get rid of him without the loss of Bf 109 if it had wished so.
Juha
I'd say, it possible that Otto Schulz shot down all those aces mentioned. He was a very skilful fighter pilots as shown on 15 Feb 42 when he shot down Imshi Mason and 3 others singlehandedly over his a/f.
During the early part of WWII Germans' claim accuracy was usually good/very good but it deteriorated later. And II/JG 27 had a case where one Schwarm fabricated claims and was caught red-handed. The only punishment was that the Schwarm was dispersed, none of its members lost any kills. Oh, the leader of the Schwarm was killed during a test flight soon after their cheat was exposed. Accident, suicide, murder? IMHO probably one of the first two, IMHO the leadership of JG 27 could have get rid of him without the loss of Bf 109 if it had wished so.
Juha
drgondog
Major
Single squadron or flight engagements that are quick hitters are obviously the easiest because one or two shooters are involved and other observers can remain more objective - such as the witness.
Big furballs like say Munich 24 April or Nov 26 Merseberg, Celle, Gardelegen,Hanover, Dummer Lake for JG 301 vs three or more separate Mustang Groups - unless first or last - seem almost impossible - or so far off the beaten path that you can narrow down to one or two people - max.
You and I both have had a lot of fun piecing together Encounter Reports, bomber tracks, crash sites, etc to think this is a science.
Having said that, North Africa seems to lend itself to slightly easier matching because the battles often were not big clashes.
davebender
1st Lieutenant
Quite a few were killed by bomber gunners who got in a lucky shot. When you fly dozens of combat missions the law of averages will eventually catch up with you.
There are also lots of incidents like flying into the ground, hitting a factory chimney, mechanical malfuction causing the aircraft to catch fire etc.
There are also lots of incidents like flying into the ground, hitting a factory chimney, mechanical malfuction causing the aircraft to catch fire etc.
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- #13
Hello Gepp
I don't recall exact info on the other shoot downs by Schulz but that of Duke, who had just some minutes before being shot down by Schulz got his 5th kill, a Fiat G.50, and that of Mason. So I have not opinion on the other 5 cases authenticity.
I'd not be surprised if some of the LW high claimers got more than 7 enemy aces, in fact I'd be surprised if any of those 150+ kills pilots didn't shot down over 7 enemy aces.
Juha
I don't recall exact info on the other shoot downs by Schulz but that of Duke, who had just some minutes before being shot down by Schulz got his 5th kill, a Fiat G.50, and that of Mason. So I have not opinion on the other 5 cases authenticity.
I'd not be surprised if some of the LW high claimers got more than 7 enemy aces, in fact I'd be surprised if any of those 150+ kills pilots didn't shot down over 7 enemy aces.
Juha
- Thread starter
- #15
The only other pilot that i have found to come close is our own Australian ace Clive"killer"Caldwell
with 5 Ace's all documented
Leutnant Heinz Schmidt .173 victories at wars end
Leutnant Werner Schröer 114 victories
Hauptmann Wolfgang Lippert,29 victories
Hpt. Erbo Graf von Kageneck 67 victories
Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt 59 victories
not to bad i think
with 5 Ace's all documented
Leutnant Heinz Schmidt .173 victories at wars end
Leutnant Werner Schröer 114 victories
Hauptmann Wolfgang Lippert,29 victories
Hpt. Erbo Graf von Kageneck 67 victories
Hans-Arnold Stahlschmidt 59 victories
not to bad i think
Hello Gepp
IMHO the problem is that as far as I know nobody has made a serious effort to try match the eastern front air kills to other side losses. Mostly because of lack of material. It has been difficult to get access to Soviet records, but it seems to become again easier, and the vast majority of LW records was lost during the war. Also in ETO air battles were often so big that it is difficult to pinpoint with certainty who shot down whom.
There is a rather new good book on Soviet aces, in Russian; my understanding is that the two books available in English are rather worthless, so if anyone wants to try to study this subject, he should be able to read Russian.
Juha
IMHO the problem is that as far as I know nobody has made a serious effort to try match the eastern front air kills to other side losses. Mostly because of lack of material. It has been difficult to get access to Soviet records, but it seems to become again easier, and the vast majority of LW records was lost during the war. Also in ETO air battles were often so big that it is difficult to pinpoint with certainty who shot down whom.
There is a rather new good book on Soviet aces, in Russian; my understanding is that the two books available in English are rather worthless, so if anyone wants to try to study this subject, he should be able to read Russian.
Juha
Hi Juha,
do you, by any chance, know of any good reading, personal memories preferably, of the LW pilots fought on the Eastern Front, available on-line.
I've recently found a huge archive of WWII memoirs (in Russian) and there were a few dozens of the memoirs of the Soviet WWII aces among them. Really good stuff. Some of the stories I've read before, some were new to me.
It would be really interesting now to find some first hand stories of their german adversaries flying same areas, same periods of war.
do you, by any chance, know of any good reading, personal memories preferably, of the LW pilots fought on the Eastern Front, available on-line.
I've recently found a huge archive of WWII memoirs (in Russian) and there were a few dozens of the memoirs of the Soviet WWII aces among them. Really good stuff. Some of the stories I've read before, some were new to me.
It would be really interesting now to find some first hand stories of their german adversaries flying same areas, same periods of war.
Hello Stasoid
sorry, I'm cannot recall any on-line memoirs of LW pilots. I haven't even read extensively memoirs of LW pilots in book form, only around 7 - 10. In the matter of fact of on-line memoirs I can recall only a couple good Soviet ones and a couple US ones.
Sorry
Juha
sorry, I'm cannot recall any on-line memoirs of LW pilots. I haven't even read extensively memoirs of LW pilots in book form, only around 7 - 10. In the matter of fact of on-line memoirs I can recall only a couple good Soviet ones and a couple US ones.
Sorry
Juha
