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"I am not familiar with how the claims in that list were verified" Your words - and again, the folks who did this research bounced the claims against British records. I can direct you to the individuals who did this research
I think what is not identified with regards to Marseille and the information shown was his claims prior to arriving in North Africa - I'll go back to the source and see what they indicatedChristopher Shores in Mediterranean Air War arrives at '100 or more shot down, crashlanded, or at least seriously damaged' DAF aircraft by Marseille, in itself pretty good accuracy . MAW is a day-by-day account of air combat and claims are also compared to the respective sides known losses. So if the 135 in that list is correct, then Shores must be missing some Britsih losses.
I think what is not identified with regards to Marseille and the information shown was his claims prior to arriving in North Africa - I'll go back to the source and see what they indicated
I think what is not identified with regards to Marseille and the information shown was his claims prior to arriving in North Africa - I'll go back to the source and see what they indicated
Beat me to the punchHe had 7 vics, prior to North Africa, total 158.
Yes - that is why I posted these conformation letters. Showing a possible reason for Hartmann's 289 confirmed kills by the air-ministry and 307 in total being filed, plus another ca. 50 awaiting filing and confirmation.So what this said, I guess this coincides with this statement from my post (9):
"German archives are themselves contradictory. Indeed only 289 of Hartmann's 'victories' were in fact 'officially confirmed' before the German claims system broke down in early 1945. Secondly, only 307 of his supposed claims had even been 'officially' filed before the end of the war."
Yes - that is why I posted these conformation letters. Showing a possible reason for Hartmann's 289 confirmed kills by the air-ministry and 307 in total being filed, plus another ca. 50 awaiting filing and confirmation.
If Hartmann's kill claims would deviate between 20-30%, it would still be considered as Normal - Average by me.
As for Soviet records and trustworthiness one example:
In 1942 Luftwaffe night claims on the Eastern front, were only awarded/confirmed if the respective Soviet wreck could be found.
Soviet night-fighter claims were claimed/recorded throughout every single mission - however present research shows that there is only a single Luftwaffe aircraft confirmed by the Luftwaffe and it's records. So I have reasons to question the reliability of Soviet stats in general.
An acquaintance of mine who has already published two volumes in regards to the Flight-training and flight-schools of the Luftwaffe will hopefully be able to get his present work
onto the Soviet Nightfighter/claims/history published by years end. And I am really looking forward to it.
Regards
Jagdflieger
I was not into suggesting that Soviet losses were "withheld" on purpose - even though it certainly can't be out-ruled. Everyone knows what Stalin and the NKWD did with Commanders that lost battles or simply did not perform to expectations (which includes also the performance of Air-units) That the Soviet military commanders couldn't be much bothered about loosing men is also known but irrelevant in this matter. That victories in whatever way documented were of utmost importance to Soviet commanders is undeniable - which would (did) include horrendous over-claiming not just in regards to aerial victories......There seems to be this perception that Soviet forces withheld losses from Moscow..
I was not into suggesting that Soviet losses were "withheld" on purpose.
No problem, we can discuss or argue about everything - why not?I wasn't saying that you did. However, it's a common refrain on this and other forums that "We can't trust the records of Germany/USSR/Japan (delete as appropriate) because they can't be correct/don't agree with other claim records/blatantly lied about reporting losses (again, delete as appropriate)." One only has to look at the brouhaha that Dan Ford stirred up when he first published his book on the Flying Tigers by stating, categorically, that the AVG never actually fought against the Mitsubishi Zero and that the AVG's claims significantly exceeded records of Japanese losses. This wasn't a dig at you. I was simply recognizing a tendency in some quarters to disregard evidence that doesn't track with the individual's perceptions.
My post was driven in part by your statement that "So I have reasons to question the reliability of Soviet stats in general." That goes beyond the accuracy of claims and would include Soviet losses, hence why I made the point that we should review each dataset as discrete, with its own set of accuracy issues. We can't lump all Soviet records into the "unreliable/inaccurate" bucket, just was we can't put all the US/British/German records into the "reliable/accurate" bucket.
Hartmann's overclaiming doesn't necessarily make him a liar; it could be he was just overly optimistic, like many other fighter pilots that overclaimed at a similar rate to Hartmann.
Are you suggesting that the Germans assumed they were winning the war because they had some pilots with high kill totals?The Germans never really got that basic truth.
An other reason Bribery of senior Wehrmacht officers
IMO that's just using another word for the same thing. Hartmann's high score rate (as described in the book, by himself and other sources and witnesses) was due to him not firingHartmann's overclaiming doesn't necessarily make him a liar; it could be he was just overly optimistic, like many other fighter pilots that overclaimed at a similar rate to Hartmann.
Very much this. The only real "victory" in a war is surviving. And for him to have also been fighting on the losing side against increasingly experienced pilots with increasingly worse logistics, while still not losing a wingman, is simply astounding. Now that's what I call having a devil in your cornerI can't comment personally on Hartmann's supposed overclaiming, but I am VERY impressed with the fact that he never lost a wingman. That he could fly the combat he flew (1.404 missions, 850 combat missions, 352 victories awarded, meaning 2.41 combat missions per victory (189 LaGG [not La-5s], 81 P-39, 25 Yak-9. etc., I have the list) without losing a wingman speaks volumes for his sense of when to attack and when not to, and his sense of situational awareness.