Why does the Breda 88 get shit on so much

pops-paolo said:

maybe better than panzer 2 but not the panzer 3 but big may be
38 t was too small and had a 2 man turret but was better in the earlier early ages all around

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Here comes details!!!

of many factors for comparison , I can name these: Main Gun Caliber, Maximum Range, Maximum Effective Range, Angle of Impact, Velocity, Core Material, Shell type, Elevation, Distance to Target, Type of Explosives used in Shell, Is target moving or stationary , Is shooter moving or stationery, Speed and direction of movement, train type, Target Armor, Humidity, Wind speed and direction, Time, and so many other factors ...

all of this are important, but almost all of these are ignored in games and movies.

If you are interested, you can search for some manuals or booklets printed by US Army in between 50' - 70's, Unfortunately I've forgot Their names and Numbers, but it is a series starting with Weapon Engineering and talks about different Calibers of Small arms, how and why they were selected and so many other things.

pops-paolo said:

ok thanks for telling me a couple of days later but anything helps

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Just you wait, six years from now someone will necro this thread, quoting you and awaiting your reply!

Thumpalumpacus said:

Just you wait, six years from now someone will necro this thread, quoting you and awaiting your reply!

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He already did in the gaming forum, replied to a six year old post

GrauGeist said:

He already did in the gaming forum, replied to a six year old post

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Yet a two-day delay in replying to him is such the hardship!

Thumpalumpacus said:

Yet a two-day delay in replying to him is such the hardship!

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My Grandfather was an old Montana cowboy, born in the Montana Territory in 1899.
He had a considerable amount of great sayings, one of which was about a Bull and his son gazing at a group of cows from atop a small hill.
The youngster, all eager, said to his father:
"hey, let's run down there and get us one!!"
The old Bull looked at his son and said:
"Boy, let's walk down there and get them all".
The impatience of youth eventually gives way to patience of age

GrauGeist said:

My Grandfather was an old Montana cowboy, born in the Montana Territory in 1899.
He had a considerable amount of great sayings, one of which was about a Bull and his son gazing at a group of cows from atop a small hill.
The youngster, all eager, said to his father:
"hey, let's run down there and get us one!!"
The old Bull looked at his son and said:
"Boy, let's walk down there and get them all".
The impatience of youth eventually gives way to patience of age

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We've got that one down here, too. I first heard it around 30 years ago, but I didn't really understand it 'til about ten years ago.

I've been told I'm a slow learner.

the 38t was better than most tanks in german service by 1939/40, its only drawback was the riveted armor. Pz IV and Pz III 5cm had a better gun though.
the 35t was rather awful in comparison to the 38t with terrible reliability especially in bad weather. those were quickly removed from service in early 42 and sent to the romanians or downgraded to gun tractors or training tanks.
the 38t chassis was highly reliable and easy to maintain, that's why it was used and produced to the end of war.

Same could be said about the Ba.65

Fred

fredleander said:

Same could be said about the Ba.65

Fred

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sorta but it did have its own bomb bay

This is my understanding of the issues with the Ba.88. This is taken from Wikipedia in particular, but I can quote similar information from 3 sources (Wiki is on-lien making cut and paste easy).

I too, started with an image of the Ba.88 and said "Wow! that must move well!". However:

The Breda Ba.88 Lince ("Lynx") was a ground-attack aircraft used by the Italian Regia Aeronautica during World War II. Its streamlined design and retractable undercarriage were advanced for the time, and after its debut in 1937 the aircraft established several world speed records. However, when military equipment was installed on production examples, problems of instability developed and the aeroplane's general performance deteriorated.

Despite its promising beginning, the addition of military equipment in the production series aircraft resulted in high wing loading and detrimental aerodynamic effects with a corresponding loss of performance, below any reasonable level.

Two Gruppi (Groups) were equipped with the Breda Ba.88 on June 1940, operating initially from Sardinia against the main airfield of Corsica, with 12 aircraft on 16 June 1940 and three on 19 June 1940. The crews soon found that the Bredas were extremely underpowered and lacked agility, but the lack of fighter opposition resulted in them being able to perform their missions without losses.

Later, 64 aircraft became operational serving 7º Gruppo in the North African Theatre with 19º Gruppo stationed in Sardinia, but their performance remained extremely poor resulting in 7º Gruppo being grounded from the end of June until September, when the Italian offensive against British forces started. Of three aircraft used, one was not even capable of taking off, and another could not turn and was forced to fly straight from their base at Castelvetrano to Sidi Rezegh.

With anti-sand filters fitted, a maximum level speed of 250 km/h (155 mph) was reported in some cases and several units were even unable to take off at all. These machines were fitted with "Spezzoniera" Nardi dispensers with 119 2 kg (4 lb) bomblets, 1,000 rounds for the three 12.7 mm (0.5 in) machine guns and 500 rounds for the 7.7 mm (0.303 in) Bredas. Although the weapons were not loaded to full capacity and the aircraft was lightened by eliminating the rear machine gun, observer, bombs and some fuel, lessening the weight did not substantially affect the aircraft's performance.

Oddly enough, the performance specs from Wikipedia appear more to be for the prototype machines, not as equipped for war, althought it lists the planned bombload and weapons..

Uncle Ted

unkated said:

This is my understanding of the issues with the Ba.88. This is taken from Wikipedia in particular, but I can quote similar information from 3 sources (Wiki is on-lien making cut and paste easy).

I too, started with an image of the Ba.88 and said "Wow! that must move well!". However:

The Breda Ba.88 Lince ("Lynx") was a ground-attack aircraft used by the Italian Regia Aeronautica during World War II. Its streamlined design and retractable undercarriage were advanced for the time, and after its debut in 1937 the aircraft established several world speed records. However, when military equipment was installed on production examples, problems of instability developed and the aeroplane's general performance deteriorated.

Despite its promising beginning, the addition of military equipment in the production series aircraft resulted in high wing loading and detrimental aerodynamic effects with a corresponding loss of performance, below any reasonable level.

Two Gruppi (Groups) were equipped with the Breda Ba.88 on June 1940, operating initially from Sardinia against the main airfield of Corsica, with 12 aircraft on 16 June 1940 and three on 19 June 1940. The crews soon found that the Bredas were extremely underpowered and lacked agility, but the lack of fighter opposition resulted in them being able to perform their missions without losses.

Later, 64 aircraft became operational serving 7º Gruppo in the North African Theatre with 19º Gruppo stationed in Sardinia, but their performance remained extremely poor resulting in 7º Gruppo being grounded from the end of June until September, when the Italian offensive against British forces started. Of three aircraft used, one was not even capable of taking off, and another could not turn and was forced to fly straight from their base at Castelvetrano to Sidi Rezegh.

With anti-sand filters fitted, a maximum level speed of 250 km/h (155 mph) was reported in some cases and several units were even unable to take off at all. These machines were fitted with "Spezzoniera" Nardi dispensers with 119 2 kg (4 lb) bomblets, 1,000 rounds for the three 12.7 mm (0.5 in) machine guns and 500 rounds for the 7.7 mm (0.303 in) Bredas. Although the weapons were not loaded to full capacity and the aircraft was lightened by eliminating the rear machine gun, observer, bombs and some fuel, lessening the weight did not substantially affect the aircraft's performance.

Oddly enough, the performance specs from Wikipedia appear more to be for the prototype machines, not as equipped for war, althought it lists the planned bombload and weapons..

Uncle Ted

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Agree -

Uncle Ted, You could pull up all the data on this aircraft but at the end of the day, putting it bluntly it was a POS. You could try to point out some positive attributes but as the old saying goes "you can't polish a turd."

As far as Wiki - I try to see if the citation source is listed at the bottom of the page and where it comes from. Most of the times the sources are reliable.

unkated said:

Oddly enough, the performance specs from Wikipedia appear more to be for the prototype machines, not as equipped for war, althought it lists the planned bombload and weapons..

Uncle Ted

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Not really odd by Wikipedia standards. The best use of Wiki for me is reading up on what interests me, and then chasing down the citations. It can be handy for that. But the apples-and-oranges that you describe are pretty common.