Why the heck did they design it that way?

[michael rauls]

Like all history books you need to read it and balance its conclusions with the knowledge that we have more facts to hand than the author because of things like the internet and the release of documents under the 30 years rule. Unfortunately a lot of Air Ministry paperwork was destroyed when the Air Ministry was merged into the Ministry of Defence in 1964.

Some years ago I tried to research the history of a relative who served as a pilot in the RAF 1940 to 1943 I discovered where he is buried and that he had been awarded the Air Force Cross but the reasons for his death and why he was awarded the AFC were not available, I was told that in 1964 lorry loads of records were sent out to be buried under an extension to the north London Circular road.

Fying Officer Wilfred Seaman AFC

Good point about older history books and that we have alot more information available now the trouble is, with so much apparently erroneous information out there especially on the internet, to be honest not being exactly an expert myself often I have a hard time discerning whats accurate and what's not.
About your relative, do you know what kind of aircraft he flew? Just curious.
Also I think it's a shame so few seemed even years later to recognise how valuable those records as well as the aircraft themselves were and would become and didn't do a better job of preservation.

 

[GrauGeist]

Also I think it's a shame so few seemed even years later to recognise how valuable those records as well as the aircraft themselves were and would become and didn't do a better job of preservation.

For many, WWII was a horrible memory that couldn't be done away with soon enough.

For others, those countless lines of parked aircraft or AFVs meant a great deal of money to be had in recycling and for Governments, they were an accounting and logistics nightmare - the sooner they were gone, the better.

 

[pbehn]

Good point about older history books and that we have alot more information available now the trouble is, with so much apparently erroneous information out there especially on the internet, to be honest not being exactly an expert myself often I have a hard time discerning whats accurate and what's not.
About your relative, do you know what kind of aircraft he flew? Just curious.
Also I think it's a shame so few seemed even years later to recognise how valuable those records as well as the aircraft themselves were and would become and didn't do a better job of preservation.

Even "Churchills History of WW2" was not completely comprehensive there were things that couldn't be included because of the 30 yr rule even though Churchill obviously was aware of them.

 

[swampyankee]

Good point about older history books and that we have alot more information available now the trouble is, with so much apparently erroneous information out there especially on the internet, to be honest not being exactly an expert myself often I have a hard time discerning whats accurate and what's not.
About your relative, do you know what kind of aircraft he flew? Just curious.
Also I think it's a shame so few seemed even years later to recognise how valuable those records as well as the aircraft themselves were and would become and didn't do a better job of preservation.

Losing the records is, in my opinion, generally far, far worse than losing the hardware.

 

[michael rauls]

For many, WWII was a horrible memory that couldn't be done away with soon enough.

For others, those countless lines of parked aircraft or AFVs meant a great deal of money to be had in recycling and for Governments, they were an accounting and logistics nightmare - the sooner they were gone, the better.

I can see how to many WW2 was a just bad memory they would like to forget. That makes sense. It just seems to me because of the monumental importance of what had just transpired and out of reverence for the men and women who risked and in many cases lost there lives the value of preservation would be apparent.
Also I can see how you can't save hundreds of every type forever but when I read stories for example about how after vj day they buldozed p47ns into the Pacific or perhaps later when the last few f6fs were retired from active service. i wonder why someone with the power to do so didn't say" hay wait a minute, maybe we should save a few of those things". Certainly more than the dozen or so airworthey of most types we have left.
I realize hindsight and my personal fascinating with the history, personel, and equipment may be coloring my viewpoint but that's thw way it looks to me.

 

[pbehn]

I can see how to many WW2 was a just bad memory they would like to forget. That makes sense. It just seems to me because of the monumental importance of what had just transpired and out of reverence for the men and women who risked and in many cases lost there lives the value of preservation would be apparent.
Also I can see how you can't save hundreds of every type forever but when I read stories for example about how after vj day they buldozed p47ns into the Pacific or perhaps later when the last few f6fs were retired from active service. i wonder why someone with the power to do so didn't say" hay wait a minute, maybe we should save a few of those things". Certainly more than the dozen or so airworthey of most types we have left.
I realize hindsight and my personal fascinating with the history, personel, and equipment may be coloring my viewpoint but that's thw way it looks to me.

Not only post war but later, there isn't even a static display of a dH Hornet while I believe the Mosquito prototype is the only prototype to survive from anywhere

 

[michael rauls]

Losing the records is, in my opinion, generally far, far worse than losing the hardware.

Good point. Plus I can see how keeping legions of hardware around and functional could be cost and time prohibiting( but not for a few dozen of each type I wouldn't think considering the scale ot the world economy even in 1946 and given the importance) but how much time and effort does it take to keep some warehouses full of records.

 

[michael rauls]

Not only post war but later, there isn't even a static display of a dH Hornet while I believe the Mosquito prototype is the only prototype to survive from anywhere

It is truly disturbing that for many types, including some fairly major ones there is not a single whole airframe left in the entire world. I was not aware that no example of the Mosquito other than the prototype existed today. I must say that's a little disappointing to hear.

 

[buffnut453]

It is truly disturbing that for many types, including some fairly major ones there is not a single whole airframe left in the entire world. I was not aware that no example of the Mosquito other than the prototype existed today. I must say that's a little disappointing to hear.

That's not what the other poster said. There are a number of Mosquitos around the world including at least 2 airworthy examples. The point was that there are no prototypes of any other WW2 aircraft surviving (although you could consider the Horten flying wing at NASM as one example of a surviving prototype).

 

[michael rauls]

That's not what the other poster said. There are a number of Mosquitos around the world including at least 2 airworthy examples. The point was that there are no prototypes of any other WW2 aircraft surviving (although you could consider the Horten flying wing at NASM as one example of a surviving prototype).

My bad. I went back and read the post again and yes I misunderstood it the first time. I guess that's slightly less tragic then but there are, at least to the best of my knowledge, many types of which there are1 or 2 or 0 left in the world and thats to bad.

 

[pbehn]

It is truly disturbing that for many types, including some fairly major ones there is not a single whole airframe left in the entire world. I was not aware that no example of the Mosquito other than the prototype existed today. I must say that's a little disappointing to hear.

Well Mosquitos survived post war and there are a couple being restored, many on the ground. You missed my point I think. The prototype Mossie at the De Havilland museum is the only WW2 aircraft prototype of any type to survive to present day. And that is possibly luck, it was used for training.

 

[michael rauls]

Well Mosquitos survived post war and there are a couple being restored, many on the ground. You missed my point I think. The prototype Mossie at the De Havilland museum is the only WW2 aircraft prototype of any type to survive to present day. And that is possibly luck, it was used for training.

Ya sorry i guess i sorta read that part in reverse so to speak.

 

[pbehn]

Ya sorry i guess i sorta read that part in reverse so to speak.

However I must say it was a completely different era, in WW2 from start to finish the RAF introduced more "types" each year than they have in my whole lifetime and I am 58.

 

[michael rauls]

However I must say it was a completely different era, in WW2 from start to finish the RAF introduced more "types" each year than they have in my whole lifetime and I am 58.

True. I guess you can't save enough of every type to equip an airforce but I for one would certainly like to have seen at least a few dozen of each of the major types kept airworthey and perhaps a few dozen more on static display.

 

[pbehn]

True. I guess you can't save enough of every type to equip an airforce but I for one would certainly like to have seen at least a few dozen of each of the major types kept airworthey and perhaps a few dozen more on static display.

As the song says, You don't know what you've got till its gone. I suppose at the time things were moving so quickly they never thought about it. Untill just before WW2 planes were made or mainly organic material, like preserving clothing out in the open air.

 

[wuzak]

Well Mosquitos survived post war and there are a couple being restored, many on the ground. You missed my point I think. The prototype Mossie at the De Havilland museum is the only WW2 aircraft prototype of any type to survive to present day. And that is possibly luck, it was used for training.

It was to be sent to the scrap heap a year or two after the war, but was saved by some people with foresight.

Interesting thing about W4050, it doesn't have its original fuselage.

The fuselage was damaged while taxiing during testing, and was replaced by the first production fuselage.

The fuselage also has a patch to cover some other damage.

 

[pbehn]

It was to be sent to the scrap heap a year or two after the war, but was saved by some people with foresight.

Interesting thing about W4050, it doesn't have its original fuselage.

The fuselage was damaged while taxiing during testing, and was replaced by the first production fuselage.

The fuselage also has a patch to cover some other damage.

Like I said its survival was as much down to luck as anything. With other marques it is a mystery how fairly large companies didn't keep any example of their best/most famous products, like the Typhoon the remaining static example is a complete lash up.

 

[MiTasol]

View attachment 503592
There is a good book on British thinking in WW2 and just prior.
Attached image. There are lots of used copies on Amazon. That's where I got mine.

Here is another book worth reading. 1940: Myth and Reality. It "rewrites" many of the "official" histories, which were in most cases based on the morale boosting political spin used by the government during the war, by using documents from the Public Records Office. Most of the book is 1940 itself but it covers all the various isssues the government of the time was saddled with starting with the rolling 10 year plan that said the military should be sized and armed on the basis that there would not be a war for the next ten years. That plan was not scrapped until 1934 and the new plan took until 1937 to be agreed on. Chamberlain gets the blame for appeasement but it was driven by the militaries pleas to avoid war at all costs because they were not capable of depending Britain.



Interesting snips include

 

[pbehn]

Here is another book worth reading. 1940: Myth and Reality. It "rewrites" many of the "official" histories, which were in most cases based on the morale boosting political spin used by the government during the war, by using documents from the Public Records Office. Most of the book is 1940 itself but it covers all the various isssues the government of the time was saddled with starting with the rolling 10 year plan that said the military should be sized and armed on the basis that there would not be a war for the next ten years. That plan was not scrapped until 1934 and the new plan took until 1937 to be agreed on. Chamberlain gets the blame for appeasement but it was driven by the militaries pleas to avoid war at all costs because they were not capable of depending Britain.

View attachment 503733

Interesting snips include
View attachment 503734

I remember reading in a book about the build up to war, on the 3rd September when war was declared a team of German workers were interned in England, they were installing machine tools in Rolls Royce.

 

[Shortround6]

Getting back to the original premise of the thread, you often have to look at where a design team or airforce was coming from.

Bf 109

2 guns, fixed pitch prop (soon to be replaced) under 700hp engine was replacing
the HE 51

2 guns, fixed pitch prop, around a 700hp engine (which could be traced back to WW I) and narrow landing gear
and the Arado 68

2 guns, same basic engine as the early 109.
They were trying for for a through the prop gun on the early 109s

This plane may have had a machine gun or simply the intention of mounting one, they often malfunctioned and some were removed in service. Not sure if this plane was fitted with wing guns or not, but it does have an adjustable or controllable pitch propeller.

Narrow landing gear attached to the fuselage was what they were used to. Small fuel tanks giving an endurance of under 2 hours was what they were used to.