Surplus Lend-Lease aircraft were scrapped, sold, abandoned, dumped, destroyed and recylced in most recipient nation. While most of these domestic and offshore disposals were well documented I have yet to find a single image of surplus Lend-Lease aircraft being scrapped in the UK. This is puzzling given that the UK was the largest single recipient of Lend-Lease aircraft. I would welcome any explanations for this. Thanks
Why was it? (1 Viewer)
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GregP
Major
The British pushed Lend-Lease aircraft over the side of carriers after the war was over.
cvairwerks
Staff Sergeant
Also some of them were required to be returned to the US or sent to other approved entities.
I think one of the issues would be that Lend Lease aircraft formed a small percentage of the total to be scrapped in the UK in 1945 compared to overseas. Most of the Lend Lease types for overseas theatres were delivered direct without ever visiting Britain.
For example, Bomber Command only had single operational squadrons of B-17 Fortresses and B-24 Liberators. Coastal Command only had 16 squadrons equipped with US Lend Lease types (Liberators,, Fortresses, Catalinas, Venturas). There were a fair number of Merlin Mustang squadrons with Fighter Command but only 2 A-20 Boston and 4 B-25 Mitchell squadrons with 2nd TAF.
A lot of the C-47 Dakotas were being retained for Transport Command.
This thread names quite a number of airfields where aircraft were scrapped.
Another that comes to mind was RAF Dumfries where I grew up. This is a photo of it around 1946.
HP52
Airman
Nothing spectacular to say except my Dad had a picture (destroyed by riverine flooding in Qld) of a Boston where the navigator fell through his floor hatch but caught himself by the elbows. There was no companionway forward. to get someone to help him. They eventually flew slow down the snowy runway and the Nav dropped out and survived. Could have been Wigsley, Leuchars, Scampton
- Thread starter
- #6
Ewen
Thanks for this thoughtful response. Your accompanying photo of surplus aircraft at Dumfries in 1946 adds to the mystery. If there were so many surplus Lend-Lease remaining in the U.K., then how is it that none were ever photographed (on the ground). This extract from Phil Butler and Dan Hagedorn's 2004 Lend-Lease study indicates that there would have been thousands remaining on charge with U.K. military forces.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 937
- Sep 30, 2021
Apart from the reasons mentioned by Ewen another reason is the USAAF had a big presence in Europe and post VE day steadily withdrew from Britain, France and Italy to Germany. Handing back aircraft was easier than elsewhere with a good chance they ended up in Germany or even the US before disposal. In April 1945 the USAAF in the ETO had 13,927 aircraft, the MTO 4,809, that was down to 7,993 and 1,336 in August 1945 via a combination of scrapping and returns. The USAAF was anticipating a major jump in Pacific theatre operations. Add the ETO tended to have a higher percentage of the latest equipment. Throw in that a number of Mustangs fates at least are listed as "sold" and despite the plans many USAAF types were not disposed of until late 1946 or early 1947.
The following is drawn form different files, measuring different aircraft groups. RN aircraft are excluded as they do not have an end of war inventory figure plus most were away from Britain.
30th August 1945 the RAF reported it had received 37 different types totalling 20,657 Lend Lease aircraft of which 12,654 were still on strength, over the next 14 months the RAF expected to write off another 771 aircraft and retain 2,263 (588 Dakota, 1,335 Harvard, 21 helicopters, 27 Liberator GR or Bomber versions plus 68 cargo versions and 213 Vengeance) the rest were to be officially returned to the US, with 8,347 made available by end 1945, reducing the US types in service in 1946 to Boston, Dakota, Fortress, Liberator GR/B and transport, Marauder, Mustang, Thunderbolt and Ventura.
The British controlled areas Import/Export figures which exclude movements as part of organised military units start in April 1940 (with some data from earlier in the war) and include cash purchase aircraft as well as Lend Lease types, South Africa and India remained "British" for the war, other parts of the Empire started that way then began ordering direct, a thing to note is the US types that were exported from Britain. Imports are put at 37,107 from all sources to all destinations, of those 12,746 were US types for the RAF imported into Britain, of which 2,689 were later exported, plus any that left as part of squadrons like the early B-24 units, leaving in round terms under 10,000 aircraft of which maybe 6,000 were still on inventory at the end of the war, some of which were non lend lease and others to be retained.
End June 1944 (repeat 1944) the RAF reports it had around 4,058 US types on inventory in the UK or on way to the UK, 184 Argus, 236 Boston, 199 Catalina, 402 Dakota, 105 Fortress, 636 Harvard, 317 Hudson, 350 Liberator, 348 Mitchell, 839 Mustang, 144 Ventura account for 3,760 of these aircraft. As of 30 August 1945 RAF world wide holdings from Lend Lease shipments ONLY were 580 Argus, 248 Boston, 57 Catalina, 1,447 Dakota, 91 Fortress, 2,270 Harvard, 203 Hudson, 1,321 Liberator, 462 Mitchell, 1,227 Mustang, 163 Ventura.
There were a lot of US built aircraft in the RAF in Britain in 1945, some stayed in use in the RAF, some were returned, some sold (as flyable?), some scrapped from 1945 into 1947 or later, no doubt the negotiations on the Lend Lease settlement would have an impact on dates and numbers. You would need to do a survey of the aircraft in Britain to gain an idea of how many were scrapped by whom in Britain, when and where. Other factors are whether they were gathered together in the open and left there for extended periods where photography was possible.
The following is drawn form different files, measuring different aircraft groups. RN aircraft are excluded as they do not have an end of war inventory figure plus most were away from Britain.
30th August 1945 the RAF reported it had received 37 different types totalling 20,657 Lend Lease aircraft of which 12,654 were still on strength, over the next 14 months the RAF expected to write off another 771 aircraft and retain 2,263 (588 Dakota, 1,335 Harvard, 21 helicopters, 27 Liberator GR or Bomber versions plus 68 cargo versions and 213 Vengeance) the rest were to be officially returned to the US, with 8,347 made available by end 1945, reducing the US types in service in 1946 to Boston, Dakota, Fortress, Liberator GR/B and transport, Marauder, Mustang, Thunderbolt and Ventura.
The British controlled areas Import/Export figures which exclude movements as part of organised military units start in April 1940 (with some data from earlier in the war) and include cash purchase aircraft as well as Lend Lease types, South Africa and India remained "British" for the war, other parts of the Empire started that way then began ordering direct, a thing to note is the US types that were exported from Britain. Imports are put at 37,107 from all sources to all destinations, of those 12,746 were US types for the RAF imported into Britain, of which 2,689 were later exported, plus any that left as part of squadrons like the early B-24 units, leaving in round terms under 10,000 aircraft of which maybe 6,000 were still on inventory at the end of the war, some of which were non lend lease and others to be retained.
End June 1944 (repeat 1944) the RAF reports it had around 4,058 US types on inventory in the UK or on way to the UK, 184 Argus, 236 Boston, 199 Catalina, 402 Dakota, 105 Fortress, 636 Harvard, 317 Hudson, 350 Liberator, 348 Mitchell, 839 Mustang, 144 Ventura account for 3,760 of these aircraft. As of 30 August 1945 RAF world wide holdings from Lend Lease shipments ONLY were 580 Argus, 248 Boston, 57 Catalina, 1,447 Dakota, 91 Fortress, 2,270 Harvard, 203 Hudson, 1,321 Liberator, 462 Mitchell, 1,227 Mustang, 163 Ventura.
There were a lot of US built aircraft in the RAF in Britain in 1945, some stayed in use in the RAF, some were returned, some sold (as flyable?), some scrapped from 1945 into 1947 or later, no doubt the negotiations on the Lend Lease settlement would have an impact on dates and numbers. You would need to do a survey of the aircraft in Britain to gain an idea of how many were scrapped by whom in Britain, when and where. Other factors are whether they were gathered together in the open and left there for extended periods where photography was possible.
There doesn't appear to be a large population of photos of aircraft being scrapped in Britain. Many more of aircraft awaiting scrapping.
While here were thousands of Lend Lease aircraft in the hands of British military forces at the end of WW2 that doesn't mean they were physically in the UK. Consider just how many were physically delivered direct to other theatres. For example
Of 826 P-47D taken on charge by the RAF, only 2 of these came to Britain for use in trials. The rest were delivered direct to India or the Middle East, the latter for use by an OTU.
Of the 907 Mustang III (P-51B/C) received, 277 were sent direct to the Med via Casablanca. About 870 Mustang IV (P-51D/K) were received with about 100 going direct to the Med and 225 direct to India.
Almost all the 1,175 Lend Lease Martin Baltimore IIIA/IV/V went direct to the Middle East as did the 500+ Martin Marauders. Only a handful of these type came to the UK.
Britain received about 1,920 Liberators under Lend Lease, of which 1,059 were bomber versions (B.III/VI/VIII) again the vast majority of which were delivered direct to the Med and Far East. Many of the GR models were also sent to those theatres after receiving modifications in the UK.
Most of the Lend Lease A-20 Bostons were another type that served more in the ME than in Britain with most deliveries going direct.
When it comes to naval types while many may have arrived in the UK, but there were also deliveries direct from the USA to India, East Africa and South Africa. Then we have all the squadrons, and the replacement aircraft for them that left to fight in the Far East and Pacific in 1944/45, including some 160 Hellcats and Corsairs flown out to India in spring / summer 1945.
I've never even looked at how many trainers were delivered to countries operating the BCATP.
Of those Lend Lease aircraft that arrived in the UK some were then exported to other theatres. Then figure in those aircraft lost on operations or in accidents or scrapped during the course of the war.
While here were thousands of Lend Lease aircraft in the hands of British military forces at the end of WW2 that doesn't mean they were physically in the UK. Consider just how many were physically delivered direct to other theatres. For example
Of 826 P-47D taken on charge by the RAF, only 2 of these came to Britain for use in trials. The rest were delivered direct to India or the Middle East, the latter for use by an OTU.
Of the 907 Mustang III (P-51B/C) received, 277 were sent direct to the Med via Casablanca. About 870 Mustang IV (P-51D/K) were received with about 100 going direct to the Med and 225 direct to India.
Almost all the 1,175 Lend Lease Martin Baltimore IIIA/IV/V went direct to the Middle East as did the 500+ Martin Marauders. Only a handful of these type came to the UK.
Britain received about 1,920 Liberators under Lend Lease, of which 1,059 were bomber versions (B.III/VI/VIII) again the vast majority of which were delivered direct to the Med and Far East. Many of the GR models were also sent to those theatres after receiving modifications in the UK.
Most of the Lend Lease A-20 Bostons were another type that served more in the ME than in Britain with most deliveries going direct.
When it comes to naval types while many may have arrived in the UK, but there were also deliveries direct from the USA to India, East Africa and South Africa. Then we have all the squadrons, and the replacement aircraft for them that left to fight in the Far East and Pacific in 1944/45, including some 160 Hellcats and Corsairs flown out to India in spring / summer 1945.
I've never even looked at how many trainers were delivered to countries operating the BCATP.
Of those Lend Lease aircraft that arrived in the UK some were then exported to other theatres. Then figure in those aircraft lost on operations or in accidents or scrapped during the course of the war.
- Thread starter
- #9
Geoffrey
Thank you for the effort you have put in to this comprehensive reply. Can you explain though why none of these Lend-Lease survivors were ever photographed?
- Thread starter
- #10
Thanks Greg. These British Pacific Fleet ocean dumpings however were comprehensively documented, whereas there does not appear to be a single image recording the destruction or salvage of surplus Lend-Lease aircraft within the UK.
Crimea_River
Marshal
I think it might be worth asking why would they bother photographing something they were going to destroy?
Cameras were not the mass market item that they are today. They were mostly expensive, relatively speaking. The cheapest available in Britain was the box Brownie starting at a few shillings, but rapidly went up to £10+. This at a time when the average wage was about £105 per week.
In Britain they were treated as "Luxury Goods" from 1940 to 1973 and were subject to a Purchase Tax of 33.33% in the period under discussion. Then add in the cost of film and developing.
Many ex-service personnel returned to Britain with good quality cameras looted, purchased or swapped for cigarettes from people overseas desperate just to sustain their daily lives. Germany it seems had caught the photography bug to a greater extent than Britain pre-war so there was a ready market, and they had excellent lenses.
Also to be considered is how the British population was discouraged during WW2 from taking photographs or filming anything to do with the war effort. There was a Control of Photography Order issued in 1939 which severely limited what could be photographed. I can't currently find when these regulations were rescinded. Nor can I find just how available photographic film was to the civilian population inn the period. Professional photographers certainly continued to ply their trade, given the number of portraits and wedding photos that exist. But beyond that?
www.iwm.org.uk
Even official photography was carried out on a much smaller scale in Britain than the USA. That is especially noticeable when it comes modifications made to warships in WW2.
I think you also need to recognise the attitude of the population in Britain at the time.
Six years of war were over, during which the civilian population had suffered greatly through bombing of their homes and workplaces and rationing (although the latter would continue until mid-1954 with bread rationing being added to the list of restricted items between 1946 and 1948). It was into 1947 before the last WW2 service personnel were demobbed. Reconstruction of homes was a priority.
There was a new Labour Govt led by Clement Attlee in power (Churchill and the Conservative Party lost the July 1945 election badly) with a radical new agenda that was seen to offer new hope to a country tired of war, and the tough times of the 1930s that had preceded it. The coal mines were nationalised, an Act of Parliament in Nov 1946 laid the ground for the formation of the National Health Service in July 1948.
Everyone was looking forward not back, so there was little interest in recording the leftovers from the past 6 years.
Camera Prices from 1939 - PentaxForums.com
Some quick handheld snaps of the photographic equipment pages from the 1939-40 Army & Navy Stores catalogue. Army & Navy was a department
www.pentaxforums.com
In Britain they were treated as "Luxury Goods" from 1940 to 1973 and were subject to a Purchase Tax of 33.33% in the period under discussion. Then add in the cost of film and developing.
Many ex-service personnel returned to Britain with good quality cameras looted, purchased or swapped for cigarettes from people overseas desperate just to sustain their daily lives. Germany it seems had caught the photography bug to a greater extent than Britain pre-war so there was a ready market, and they had excellent lenses.
Also to be considered is how the British population was discouraged during WW2 from taking photographs or filming anything to do with the war effort. There was a Control of Photography Order issued in 1939 which severely limited what could be photographed. I can't currently find when these regulations were rescinded. Nor can I find just how available photographic film was to the civilian population inn the period. Professional photographers certainly continued to ply their trade, given the number of portraits and wedding photos that exist. But beyond that?
Ministerial Mayhem: The Control of Photography Order, 1939
Even official photography was carried out on a much smaller scale in Britain than the USA. That is especially noticeable when it comes modifications made to warships in WW2.
I think you also need to recognise the attitude of the population in Britain at the time.
Six years of war were over, during which the civilian population had suffered greatly through bombing of their homes and workplaces and rationing (although the latter would continue until mid-1954 with bread rationing being added to the list of restricted items between 1946 and 1948). It was into 1947 before the last WW2 service personnel were demobbed. Reconstruction of homes was a priority.
There was a new Labour Govt led by Clement Attlee in power (Churchill and the Conservative Party lost the July 1945 election badly) with a radical new agenda that was seen to offer new hope to a country tired of war, and the tough times of the 1930s that had preceded it. The coal mines were nationalised, an Act of Parliament in Nov 1946 laid the ground for the formation of the National Health Service in July 1948.
Everyone was looking forward not back, so there was little interest in recording the leftovers from the past 6 years.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Maybe the cameras were LL as well and got scrapped first? 
Lend Lease aircraft are a special discussion now on forums like this. At the time they were just aircraft being scrapped. During the war on average an airforce replaced its front line strength every six months, in a way that defines how big your airforce can be. Most of the time from 1940 onwards more aircraft were scrapped and or cannibalised than were shot down but in UK this was done mainly on operational airfields and "Joe pilot" or "Jim groundcrew" wouldnt start taking pictures there anyway, if he had a camera. Warbirds are appreciated much more now than then. I remember in 1965 my brother going to RAF Acklington on the English North East coast for the BoB 25th anniversary, he had taken a few pictures of a static display Spitfire, even to my childs eyes it looked sad and half wrecked. In the following years when the Battle of Britain movie was being made it was realised just how few were left in flying condition.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Maybe the cameras were LL as well and got scrapped first?
I think we had a thread recently where it was pointed out that the Swiss air force bought it's post WW2 P-51 D aircraft and equipment from the USA at large disposal storage in Germany.
Many of those aircraft had been in US service in the late war period.
Eng
Many of those aircraft had been in US service in the late war period.
Eng
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Re Post #12. The average UK weekly wage in 1940 - 1942, was around £6, equating to approximately £430 today. Even by the early 1950's, this had only risen to around £9 per week.
As mentioned by Ewen, there was strict control over public photography, and photographing military subjects, including downed/captured enemy aircraft, was forbidden, with those caught doing so facing a hefty fine, or prison, or both.
Photography by UK serving military personnel, on military installations (eg airfields), was also an offence, although this was not always strictly enforced, for instance in the case of personal photos, unless a "Restricted" item of equipment was included in the photo, such as an aircraft with a "Guard" serial number (eg XX123/G), where the "G" indicated secret equipment on board, and the aircraft requiring an armed guard 24 hours per day (the "Dambuster Lancs, and those of 101 Sqn are examples).
"Official Issue" and Press photography was less restricted, although Press photographers were fairly tightly controlled, with dedicated "Press Days" for PR purposes, and all photographic release/publication was closely censored.
The main production sources for photographic films, paper and chemicals in the UK at the time were Kodak Ltd, and Ilford Ltd, predominantly B&W, with priority being given to Government and Military use, with a relatively small allowance for Press use, and even smaller availability for civilian use (very often remaining stocks from pre-war).
Photo processing for civilians was limited, mainly due to availability of processing chemicals and paper, and many WW2 "personal" photos were only processed after the end of the war.
As mentioned by Ewen, there was strict control over public photography, and photographing military subjects, including downed/captured enemy aircraft, was forbidden, with those caught doing so facing a hefty fine, or prison, or both.
Photography by UK serving military personnel, on military installations (eg airfields), was also an offence, although this was not always strictly enforced, for instance in the case of personal photos, unless a "Restricted" item of equipment was included in the photo, such as an aircraft with a "Guard" serial number (eg XX123/G), where the "G" indicated secret equipment on board, and the aircraft requiring an armed guard 24 hours per day (the "Dambuster Lancs, and those of 101 Sqn are examples).
"Official Issue" and Press photography was less restricted, although Press photographers were fairly tightly controlled, with dedicated "Press Days" for PR purposes, and all photographic release/publication was closely censored.
The main production sources for photographic films, paper and chemicals in the UK at the time were Kodak Ltd, and Ilford Ltd, predominantly B&W, with priority being given to Government and Military use, with a relatively small allowance for Press use, and even smaller availability for civilian use (very often remaining stocks from pre-war).
Photo processing for civilians was limited, mainly due to availability of processing chemicals and paper, and many WW2 "personal" photos were only processed after the end of the war.
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 43,595
- Mar 26, 2007
Swiss Mustangs - Swiss Mustangs
North American P-51 Mustang der Schweizer Flugwaffe, North American P-51 Mustang with the Swiss Air Force
www.swissmustangs.ch
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
I suspect, without clear knowledge, that the aeroplanes were handed over to US forces and not scrapped by the RAF. Aluminium was not a post war shortage item as one can see from firms using aluminium as a cheap and readily available material. Landrovers had aluminium bodies as suitable steel was not available. I have a small wood plane made from WW2 scrap aluminium as a minor example. The scrap yards were so full of British aeroplanes that the owners shovelled them into the corner or buried them to recover later when the market had less of a glut.
So for documentary and photographic evidence it might be better to look in US files than in RAF ones and the documentary trace they may well have been subsumed into the overall US holdings. Were many flown back to the USA to be scrapped there?
As a piece of trivia, many of the FAA aeroplanes that were thrown off the decks at sea must have sunk very quickly as the ship's paperwork showed them allegedly stuffed with all the stores that had gone missing over the preceding years.
So for documentary and photographic evidence it might be better to look in US files than in RAF ones and the documentary trace they may well have been subsumed into the overall US holdings. Were many flown back to the USA to be scrapped there?
As a piece of trivia, many of the FAA aeroplanes that were thrown off the decks at sea must have sunk very quickly as the ship's paperwork showed them allegedly stuffed with all the stores that had gone missing over the preceding years.
