Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
So no P-40 unit would be feasible in France probably before Winter
Why was P-36 so successful in the battle of France?
- Thread starter Nodeo-Franvier
- Start date
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First realize this guy flies multiple aircraft, and once a year is not often (or confidence inspiring from repetition).
Next this and the P39 were often the first fighter our guys flew. Forgiving, less powerful, confidence builders.
The T-37 checklist was longer and more complicated than the P40, but after starting it about 20+ times you don't need to pull out the checklist for anything other than a last minute check to insure all items have been touched.
I flew with the checklist in the Eagle just a few times. Having an IP in the backseat riding your ass (or the other jet) was ample incentive to get it memorized. From start to check in we used 10-12 minutes. In that time we would start both engines, check the flight controls, radar, load the radios (total pain in the ass), load the INS, check the fire detect systems, engines, Radar Warning Reciever (RWR), internal counter measures, jammer, and if refueling the slipway door. Not bad recall and I haven't started one since 2008. There was more stuff, and those systems required varying amounts of interaction.
Also there is a difference between a guy who flies occasionally and one who does it for a living. Repetition.
Cheers,
Biff
No, that was the date of the order, according to that page and all of the other sources that I have. (May 10, 1940)
All of the below from the Curtiss P-40 Warhawk site. Variants Tomahawk
"The first of the French-ordered H81-A1s flew on June 6, 1940, and a few were actually completed with French markings."
"In September of 1940, the USAAC agreed to defer deliveries of their P-40s so that the Tomahawk Is could be supplied to Britain as soon as possible. The first Tomahawk Is reached England in September of 1940. ... Such was the urgency of their delivery to Britain that many of the 140 machines still had French instruments and bore cockpit lettering in French when they arrived."
Note that the aircraft probably could have been delivered to France just a little earlier, since it took time to make the agreement to transfer the contract to the U.K., production had shifted the USAAC P-40s and needed to be switched back, etc. I believe that a number of H81s had been set aside without all equipment installed in order to return to USAAC production.
I can dig for a lot more info, but I think this covers what's needed.
"However, Britain quickly concluded that these planes were not suitable for combat, since they lacked armor protection for the pilot, armor-glass windshields, or self-sealing fuel tanks."
Important not to just look at speed, climb rate, and armament when assessing an aircraft. Fitting all of that would reduce maneuverability in all aspects, along with climb rate.
Shortround6
Major General
The first Hawk 81A (French) rolled out the Curtiss door and flew on June 6th 1940.
However the 2nd Hawk 81 may not have shown up for a while. The first plane may have been kept as a test aircraft (along with a Hawk 81A-1 and a Hawk 81A-2).
All 1180 aircraft that were delivered (In Buffalo) between Sept 18th 1940 and Aug 21st, 1941.
The first 100 (or more?) and had no self sealing tanks and no armor. The original contracts called for French instruments (and French throttles) and radios and provisions for French armament (machine guns). This may have meant they were to be suppled without guns but with mounts and suitable ammo boxes and cables/wiring, etc.
In any case the first 100 planes that showed up in Britain seem to have had mixed armament, two .50 cal guns in the cowl (which took months to sort out) and either four .303 Brownings or four .30 cal Brownings in the wing.
It seems like few, if any, of the French aircraft actually showed up in Britain with the French instruments and throttles.
One aircraft (SN 14446) was photographed outside the factory in French markings in June of 1940 but the entry for that aircraft is stricken through in the Curtiss billing records.
By the time the first 100 (99?) were crated and loaded on ships and gotten to England the BoB (the daylight portion anyway) was over.
No 26 squadron may have gotten them in England first but No 403 squadron (RCAF) was host to a meeting in May of 1941 with Don Berlin, G.B. Clark and Rod Molloy to see how the Tomahawk was doing in service.
This was a little late as the Military Air Attaché (General Scanlon) In Britain had met with the British Deputy Chief of Air Staff to see how the Tomahawk was doing in RAF service, among other things, on Feb 25th 1941. The report was good but they were were using non operational aircraft in a non operational squadron while they tried to sort out some of the problems with the armament and bring the planes up to operational standard.
the actual French ORDER dates from Oct 9th 1939 for 230 aircraft. But since the US had ordered the 530-560 back in April deliveries of French aircraft were going to be late.
The 200th US production aircraft (MSN 13232) was accepted by the army on Oct 16th 1940. Over the summer and into the fall a few Tomahawks seem to have interspersed with US production and finally the US differed production of the last 320 something until after the British had taken several hundred, the differed US P_40s becoming P-40Bs and P-40Cs.
A number of old accounts seem to have speeded things up a bit.
I am going by "Curtiss Fighter Aircraft" by Francis H. Dean (of America's Hundred Thousand) and Dan Hagedorn.
However the 2nd Hawk 81 may not have shown up for a while. The first plane may have been kept as a test aircraft (along with a Hawk 81A-1 and a Hawk 81A-2).
All 1180 aircraft that were delivered (In Buffalo) between Sept 18th 1940 and Aug 21st, 1941.
The first 100 (or more?) and had no self sealing tanks and no armor. The original contracts called for French instruments (and French throttles) and radios and provisions for French armament (machine guns). This may have meant they were to be suppled without guns but with mounts and suitable ammo boxes and cables/wiring, etc.
In any case the first 100 planes that showed up in Britain seem to have had mixed armament, two .50 cal guns in the cowl (which took months to sort out) and either four .303 Brownings or four .30 cal Brownings in the wing.
It seems like few, if any, of the French aircraft actually showed up in Britain with the French instruments and throttles.
One aircraft (SN 14446) was photographed outside the factory in French markings in June of 1940 but the entry for that aircraft is stricken through in the Curtiss billing records.
By the time the first 100 (99?) were crated and loaded on ships and gotten to England the BoB (the daylight portion anyway) was over.
No 26 squadron may have gotten them in England first but No 403 squadron (RCAF) was host to a meeting in May of 1941 with Don Berlin, G.B. Clark and Rod Molloy to see how the Tomahawk was doing in service.
This was a little late as the Military Air Attaché (General Scanlon) In Britain had met with the British Deputy Chief of Air Staff to see how the Tomahawk was doing in RAF service, among other things, on Feb 25th 1941. The report was good but they were were using non operational aircraft in a non operational squadron while they tried to sort out some of the problems with the armament and bring the planes up to operational standard.
the actual French ORDER dates from Oct 9th 1939 for 230 aircraft. But since the US had ordered the 530-560 back in April deliveries of French aircraft were going to be late.
The 200th US production aircraft (MSN 13232) was accepted by the army on Oct 16th 1940. Over the summer and into the fall a few Tomahawks seem to have interspersed with US production and finally the US differed production of the last 320 something until after the British had taken several hundred, the differed US P_40s becoming P-40Bs and P-40Cs.
A number of old accounts seem to have speeded things up a bit.
I am going by "Curtiss Fighter Aircraft" by Francis H. Dean (of America's Hundred Thousand) and Dan Hagedorn.
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Yes, and that's what the article said that I posted, perhaps I should have been more clear that this was the date ordered rather than the planned delivery date.
Hah! Ninja'd!
(I ninja'd Shortround6, but then FLYBOYJ got his message in before this one posted, making everything confusing.)
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Well, the question was, "when were they supposed to show up in France" (as quoted in your reply), so you were accidentally answering a different question.
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
Yeah I take your point, and I am sure you would memorize it eventually, and it's not like it's that much stuff. I've memorized much more complex and lengthy lists. It's not so much 'all the things' as the risks I associate (at least in my mind) with all the manual processes and systems and remembering all their little quirks.
Like for example, in the video, he keeps having to pump up the brakes again and again as he's taxiing the plane around, waiting for ground traffic, before the run-up, etc.. I don't know what happens if you forget to do that once, seems like it's a good way to wreck.
I think Jeff mentions a few more little things like that in this one
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
So it sounds like the first ones could have arrived by around September, but then you'd still need another month or so at minimum for familiarization, and these first ones would be without any armor or SS tanks etc., maybe with just two guns.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Although you'll eventually memorize the checklist, you'll still use it to make sure you "touched everything" (as Biff stated) especially if you're on the receiving end of a checkride.
As far as "pumping the brakes" (or avoiding using them) as shown in the video - it's something that you'll become accustomed to as you continue to fly the aircraft. As a pilot gets more and more experienced some of these tasks become second nature even if you regularly fly several different aircraft
Wild_Bill_Kelso
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,231
- Mar 18, 2022
All good points - but I know from reading the operational histories, even very experienced pilots routinely ground looped, overshot runways, taxied into things, and had all kinds of other accidents and not even taking into consideration things like battle damage or major systems failures.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Don't forget landing "wheels up"
Shortround6
Major General
P-40 production (all mixed together) in 1940 was.
May......................11
June......................25
July.......................56
Aug....................104
Sept...................114
Oct.....................135
Nov....................168
Dec.....................165
Initial production was US P-40s with 200 completed sometime in Sept.
There were a few (at least 1) French airframes scattered though the first months.
The British took over the French contracts and the most of the Sept-Oct production was the planes that had been ordered as French aircraft. However with the contracts changed over in May-June very few were completed to French specifications. The production in that Sept-October period were the British Tomahawk 1s.
The initial French contract was for 230 aircraft (or expanded to 230 a bit later? or misprint for 130?) In the Spring of 1940 the French and British had placed large joint orders for many aircraft or had placed letters of intent. For the P-40 that meant another 500 planes in the que beyond the first 230 (130?). The US pretty much stopped taking deliveries in Sept allowing all planes to go to Britain.
Sept marks the dividing line with the first Tomahawk IIAs with extremal self sealing and armor and BP glass.
Equivalent to P-40Bs, The US delayed taking delivery while Curtiss pushed out the Tomahawk IIAs. First P-40Bs weren't built until March of 1941 but first official acceptance wasn't until May 5th 1941. Curtiss was really getting into it's stride and completed 193 P-40Cs between March 31st and May 20th 1941. However flights were a bit behind "builds" as the first flight of a P-40C was May 10th.
The British added 450 more Tomahawks which correspond to the P-40C with the internal self sealing tanks and the fittings for the drop tanks. Small batches went to Turkey and Russia would up with a mixed collection of early P-40s including some P-40Gs which were early P-40s upgraded with self sealing tanks and armor.
Production of the later Tomahawks ran until Aug 21st 1941.
Curtiss was building between 125 and 186 planes a month during most of the 1941 production run.
Don't underestimate the time needed to crate completed aircraft (plane has to be flown, fluids drained, engine treated with preservatives. Propeller taken off, wing taken off and all small parts placed in boxes in the crates. I don't know if they shipped crated aircraft through the St. Laurence or if they shipped by rail to US East Coast ports.
It took months for the AVG aircraft to be shipped, unpacked and assembled. Yes they could do it faster in England but we are still talking a number of weeks instead of months.
Some of the British squadrons were still trying to sort out their Tomahawks in the Summer of 1941 as the British were having all kinds of problems with the .50 cal guns and if they failed the Tomahawks had four .303 guns at best.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Staff Sergeant
- 779
- Sep 30, 2021
RAF records have the first Tomahawk arriving in Britain during the week ending 14 September 1940.
P-40 acceptances, 1940
May, 11 P-40
June, 19 P-40, 6 Tomahawk I
July, 35 P-40, 20 Tomahawk I, 1 P-40G
August, 57 P-40, 47 Tomahawk I
September, 51 P-40, 63 Tomahawk I
October, 26 P-40, 4 Tomahawk I, 105 Tomahawk IIA
November, 5 Tomahawk IIA, 163 Tomahawk IIB
December, 165 Tomahawk IIB
1941,
January, 153 Tomahawk IIB
February, 131 Tomahawk IIB, 22 P-40B
March, 18 Tomahawk IIB, 107 P-40B, 8 P-40C
April, 10 Tomahawk IIB, 1 P-40B, 175 P-40C
May, 133 Tomahawk IIB, 1 P-40B, 10 P-40C, 2 P-40D
June, 99 Tomahawk IIB, 20 P-40D, 6 P-40E
July, 58 Tomahawk IIB, 23 P-40E
August, 28 Kittyhawk I, 151 P-40E
September, 183 Kittyhawk I, 71 P-40E
October, 166 Kittyhawk I, 104 P-40E
November, 161 Kittyhawk I, 120 P-40E
December, 22 Kittyhawk I, 174 P-40E, 89 P-40E-1
2,246 P-40 accepted in 1941, average over 187 per month.
According to the USAAF contract F-273 was for 420 HK-75A-4 (ultimately 216 accepted for France, 206 for Britain) plus 100 HK-81A, Contract A-84 with Britain was for 1,080 HK-81A, contract A-1835 with Britain for 560 HK-87A
USAAF contract AC-12414 24 April 1939 accepted as 199 P-40, 22 P-40D, 301 P-40E, 1 XP-40F, 1 P-40G, contract AC-15802 13 September 1940 (plus extensions) accepted as 131 P-40B, 193 P-40C, 519 P-40E, 999 P-40F
Turkey received ex RAF Tomahawk IIB starting in 1942.
10 P-40C were released for Yugoslavia, but ended up going to Russia on British account, exported in September 1941, 16 P-40C accepted for Russia in April 1941, not exported until December. The one P-40G (39-221) accepted in July 1940 was not exported until December 1941. Air Arsenal North America states 17 P-40 were upgraded to P-40G and sent to Russia in Otober 1941, including 39-221.
P-40 acceptances, 1940
May, 11 P-40
June, 19 P-40, 6 Tomahawk I
July, 35 P-40, 20 Tomahawk I, 1 P-40G
August, 57 P-40, 47 Tomahawk I
September, 51 P-40, 63 Tomahawk I
October, 26 P-40, 4 Tomahawk I, 105 Tomahawk IIA
November, 5 Tomahawk IIA, 163 Tomahawk IIB
December, 165 Tomahawk IIB
1941,
January, 153 Tomahawk IIB
February, 131 Tomahawk IIB, 22 P-40B
March, 18 Tomahawk IIB, 107 P-40B, 8 P-40C
April, 10 Tomahawk IIB, 1 P-40B, 175 P-40C
May, 133 Tomahawk IIB, 1 P-40B, 10 P-40C, 2 P-40D
June, 99 Tomahawk IIB, 20 P-40D, 6 P-40E
July, 58 Tomahawk IIB, 23 P-40E
August, 28 Kittyhawk I, 151 P-40E
September, 183 Kittyhawk I, 71 P-40E
October, 166 Kittyhawk I, 104 P-40E
November, 161 Kittyhawk I, 120 P-40E
December, 22 Kittyhawk I, 174 P-40E, 89 P-40E-1
2,246 P-40 accepted in 1941, average over 187 per month.
According to the USAAF contract F-273 was for 420 HK-75A-4 (ultimately 216 accepted for France, 206 for Britain) plus 100 HK-81A, Contract A-84 with Britain was for 1,080 HK-81A, contract A-1835 with Britain for 560 HK-87A
USAAF contract AC-12414 24 April 1939 accepted as 199 P-40, 22 P-40D, 301 P-40E, 1 XP-40F, 1 P-40G, contract AC-15802 13 September 1940 (plus extensions) accepted as 131 P-40B, 193 P-40C, 519 P-40E, 999 P-40F
Turkey received ex RAF Tomahawk IIB starting in 1942.
10 P-40C were released for Yugoslavia, but ended up going to Russia on British account, exported in September 1941, 16 P-40C accepted for Russia in April 1941, not exported until December. The one P-40G (39-221) accepted in July 1940 was not exported until December 1941. Air Arsenal North America states 17 P-40 were upgraded to P-40G and sent to Russia in Otober 1941, including 39-221.
Just Schmidt
Senior Airman
I'm not a pilot, but if i were I,d never forget to land wheels up!
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I sense a disturbance in the Force.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
This goes back to repetition:
When you train or fly a type with certain features for so long, habits become formed.
I flew quite a few fixed gear types (Cub, Ercoupe, 172, etc.) and when I first flew my family's PA-28R (Cherokee), I damn-near forgot to extend the gear on final.
It can happen to anyone.
The French were using Bearn to carry assembled aircraft, which certainly would have saved some time. (It was about all that Bearn was good for.)
The H75s (P-36s) she was carrying (along with Stinsons and Buffalos) were unloaded on Martinique, where they rotted into scrap.
Oh, and I love this: "The ship made brief deployments to Guadeloupe in May and August 1941. When her hull was being scraped on 6 December, a diver discovered that one propeller blade had fallen off."
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
You say that - this is one of the most common accidents in general aviation
Shortround6
Major General
It might not have saved a lot.
Bearn was only good for 10-12kts cruising speed. Reciprocating machinery isn't good at high cruising speeds.
You don't have to crate the planes but you do need to either put them aboard with cranes or load them aboard lighters/barges and hoist them aboard. And do the reverse at the destination. at least until you clear enough deck space to take off from.
The Bearn could be used but it can't handle the entire aircraft traffic.
The USS Ranger did a lot of aircraft ferrying, but she was faster, had about double the range and could cruise faster without fear of Breaking down.
She could also hold more aircraft.
CVEs were used as ferrys but they could load them up in succession if need be. The Bearn might be good for one round trip every 3-4 weeks, at best.
