Admiral Beez
Major
If the RAF has them and the FAA won't take them, I'd say ship the Martlets to Malaya and India to serve (in 1941-42) alongside the Mohawks and Buffaloes.
Wildcat during the Battle of Britain
- Thread starter pinehilljoe
- Start date
Glider
Major
I think you hit it right on the nose. The best use for the Wildcats would be with the FAA who no doubt would take as many as they could get their hands on.
Admiral Beez
Major
Let's just hope they don't waste them as disposable fighters on Cam ships, but instead get them onto carriers. Many a Battle of Britain veteran Hurricane met this fate.
HMS Audacity, the first CVE definitely deserves a flight of Martlets.
That's not the altitude at which bombers flew.
They came at an average of about 4,500m/15,000ft, or low level. Many of the most effective attacks during this August period of the BoB were low level.
Many interceptions took place at 9,000-10,000 feet, according to Combat Reports.
The problem for the 'Wildcat', apart from the RAF deciding that it was unsuitable for operations in NW Europe, was the escorts which flew much higher.
Here's a nice picture taken from a Do 17 of 9./KG76 over Kenley, capturing a No 64 Squadron Spitfire in its blast pen.
always like seeing that shot !
It's a great series of photos. I think my favourite is the very first, taken through the pilot's windscreen as the aircraft approach Beachy Head. They are clearly lower than the cliffs! It's not technically a very good photograph, but it makes you realise how low they flew in an effort to avoid detection.
There's also a fantastically clear photograph taken of Burgess Hill, as the Dorniers turned to follow the railway line to Kenley. This one is just a very good photograph and is my third favourite, after the one I posted above. For anyone familiar with Burgess Hill, the image is taken close to the town centre and shows Cyprus Road.
Glider
Major
Interestingly pre war the RN had identified a couple of liners that would be suitable for conversion into light carriers. However they came under a different department who wouldn't release them, as they believed that they were more useful as troop transports. As a result it was decided that the RN could convert merchant ships but only if they were already under the control of the RN.
Hence the delay as first the RN had to identify the ships, then prepare the plans and fin the dockyard availability to make the conversion. The Audacity was of course a captured German ship and the British converted carriers tended to be ex Armed Merchant Cruisers
yulzari
Tech Sergeant
As things change and develop the FAA was still using the (much different) Martlet over Norway in 1945 coping with Me 109Gs. However the 1940 Martlet was a very different beast.
Admiral Beez
Major
If the hangar is omitted, like with Audacity I don't see why they can't be both CVE troop/merchant ship. Circling back to the Battle of Britain, did the Air Ministry and War Office transfer FAA fighter pilots to RAF Spitfire and Hurricane squadrons? That would be quite the performance upgrade from one's Skua or Sea Gladiator.
The Japanese army, not wanting to rely on the IJN decided to make their own IJA escort carriers, focused on ASW. Imagine the British army deciding to do the same. Similar the the IJA carrier's Kokusai Ki-76, the British Army Air Corp operated the Taylorcraft Auster. Of course, like the Martlet in the Battle of Britain, we must fiddle with the timeline as both the Army Air Corp and the Auster did not exist until 1942.
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Glider
Major
The RN did have a number of merchant conversions such as the Audacity and they were either converted grain carriers or tankers as they could still carry a large proportion of their original cargo as well as operate as carriers. They were sometimes known as the Empire class's.
Personally the idea of being based on a merchant carrier that was still carrying x thousands of tons of fuel wouldn't make for a good nights sleep.
The the Fleet Air Arm pilots in the BOB a number flew with the RAF in the BOB but not many as there were so few FAA pilots at the time
- Thread starter
- #31
pinehilljoe
Staff Sergeant
In With Wings like Eagles, Michael Korda wrote that the radar at the time could not accurately determine altitude. Dowding assumed the Germans would fly at the same level as British bombers in 1940, or about 10,000 feet.
Korda is not entirely right.
Radar in 1940 could determine altitude reasonably accurately. If you find a good image of the receiving towers of a Chain Home station you will see the two dipole antennae at different heights (215' and 95'),which were used to do exactly that. In ideal conditions the terrain should be flat for a mile in front of the antennae (for technical reasons I'm not going into here). The system was calibrated for each station with a large number of calibration flights. Chain Home could certainly measure altitude.
Again, for technical reasons, detection at high angles above 8 degrees could be problematic and required an experienced operator to be exact. Fortunately most detections occurred at ranges where this was not an issue.
Once across the coast the Observer Corps used basic instruments and trigonometry to determine and report altitude.
Dowding never assumed anything. RAF Intelligence compiled reports on the structure of German formations, including the altitude of the bombers, disposition of escorts etc. throughout the Battle. I know because I have read some of them!
Edit: Here is an RAF report on Luftwaffe tactics from this very day, 31 August, 80 years ago.
"The Germans resumed heavy fighter escorts, formations of up to 100 Messerschmitt Bf 109 and Messerschmitt Bf 110 being reported. When both these types of fighters are escorting bombers, it is general for the Bf 110 to be level with or just above the bombers at 15,000 ft with Messerschmitt Bf 109 stepped up behind to 20,000 ft. In another case thirty Dornier Do 17 were in vics of ten line astern stepped up from 15,000 to 15,500 ft with forty Bf 110 level with the last vic and on the right, left and behind it, and a considerable number of Messerschmitt Bf 109s at 25,000 ft behind them."
Radar in 1940 could determine altitude reasonably accurately. If you find a good image of the receiving towers of a Chain Home station you will see the two dipole antennae at different heights (215' and 95'),which were used to do exactly that. In ideal conditions the terrain should be flat for a mile in front of the antennae (for technical reasons I'm not going into here). The system was calibrated for each station with a large number of calibration flights. Chain Home could certainly measure altitude.
Again, for technical reasons, detection at high angles above 8 degrees could be problematic and required an experienced operator to be exact. Fortunately most detections occurred at ranges where this was not an issue.
Once across the coast the Observer Corps used basic instruments and trigonometry to determine and report altitude.
Dowding never assumed anything. RAF Intelligence compiled reports on the structure of German formations, including the altitude of the bombers, disposition of escorts etc. throughout the Battle. I know because I have read some of them!
Edit: Here is an RAF report on Luftwaffe tactics from this very day, 31 August, 80 years ago.
"The Germans resumed heavy fighter escorts, formations of up to 100 Messerschmitt Bf 109 and Messerschmitt Bf 110 being reported. When both these types of fighters are escorting bombers, it is general for the Bf 110 to be level with or just above the bombers at 15,000 ft with Messerschmitt Bf 109 stepped up behind to 20,000 ft. In another case thirty Dornier Do 17 were in vics of ten line astern stepped up from 15,000 to 15,500 ft with forty Bf 110 level with the last vic and on the right, left and behind it, and a considerable number of Messerschmitt Bf 109s at 25,000 ft behind them."
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Admiral Beez
Major
With so few carriers by summer 1940 (HMS Courageous sunk Sept 1939, Glorious sunk June 1940, Illustrious about to commission) there should be some FAA fighter pilots available for temporary transfer. With the four Illustrious class soon to enter service, BoB combat experience would have been useful when the FAA enters the Mediterranean war.
During the BoB HMS Eagle and Hermes were in the Indian Ocean, Ark Royal was at Gilbraltar and Furious was conducting air strikes against Norway.
Have you read anything about what German intelligence knew about Chain Home?
The Do 17's were at low level to suppress the bases defenses and to cause a diversion, they were loaded with time delayed 50Kg bombs, the main raids came in at 12,000-15,000ft. It doesn't matter if the Do 17's were at low level, a Wildcat would still never catch them.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Dornier_Do_17_bombers_over_the_Channel_1940.jpg
I like this one, this is the actual Do 17's over the channel if the reports are true.
And just as many over, reading combat reports Hurricanes and Spitfires orbited at 20,000ft and many Spitfire squadrons went higher, no F4F Gladiator or Defiant could fill that roll.
Admiral Beez
Major
That Dornier pilot was in need of the Do 17 Z-10 Kauz's four mg and two 20 mm cannon nose armament.
Betty says, that's not low, this is low Mitsubishi G4M - Wikipedia
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AB,
That needs to be captioned with "you think thats low, hold my beer" in Japanese!
Cheers,
Biff
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
The Martlet I had the best version of the R-1820 Cyclone available until about the start of 1943. In was one generation newer than the engines in the British Buffaloes. It still wasn't quite good enough. To change to the R-1830 Twin Wasp (WIldcat engine) requires changing just about everything forward of the firewall (and perhaps a few things behind?). basically more trouble than it is worth.
Grumman built only a handful of Martlets/Wildcats in the first 1/2 of 1940. There is a bit of confusion caused by roll out dates, acceptance dates and delivery dates. Plus a few of the very early airframes were siphoned off for experimental projects. But basically deliveries started in July of 1940 (1 plane) but jumped considerably in Aug-Sept (32 and 29 planes) so the British got the ex french G-36s (Martlets) and got them into action in the fall of 1940 leading to the Ju-88 shoot down on Dec 25th 1940. To get into the BoB Grumman could have started production as late as March 1940 for this scenario.
CC&F got a contract for 40 Hurricane Is in Nov of 1938. First plane was flown in Jan 1940. 20 had been delivered to England by the start of the BoB.
I am afraid bumping the Grumman Wildcat time line by even 6 months doesn't allow CC&F enough time to become a Wildcat supplier.
BTW, Blackburn did all the work of converting the French G-36As to Martlets (fitting the .50 guns instead of the French 7.5mm guns, fitting new throttles and some instruments/warning placards, oxygen system, etc) Blackburn continued to be the conversion shop for all Grumman aircraft to see service in the RN during the war.
