Will there ever be a heavy-weight military clash?

Discussion in 'Modern' started by Udet, Dec 28, 2006.

  1. Udet

    Udet Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Gentlemen, ladies, boys, girls:

    Although it is generally accepted the armed forces of the U.S.A. posses the most advanced and sophisticated weaponry systems, Great Britain, the enfant chéri of the U.S.A. is another element on the table; there you have Russia and China, both military powers, possibly lagging behind the U.S.A. in terms of armament but with huge militaries...others that could perhaps be considered "minor" are India, Pakistan and North Korea, as all three nations maintain significant military budgets -and in the case of India and North Korea we also talk about huge militaries-.

    But back to the question giving life to this thread: do you believe we will live long enough to witness some sort of global catastrophe as a consequence of a militay clash between any of the present-day heavy-weights?

    I am not referring to a nuclear kind of engagement as the possiblity might seem highly remote, but is it possible to think of a war other than a superpower like the U.S.A. invading nations with weak armies and/or internal chaos and lawlessness?

    Do you think the geopolitical balance of the word could follow such path that any of the present-day heavyweights might wage war between them?

    As it has been since ancient times, when a determined world power enters a state of war, another power, even if "minor", might join in the party to back the ally, so if a war like the one i am referring to occurs this principle will of course function. So let´s say, is it possible to see a war between China and the U.S.A.?

    Still a "what if" of course, but could it happen? If so, what side would the Russians join? It is known Russians and Chinese do not have what you´d call the most pleasant of the relationships. Neutrality would be impossible in the case of the russians, they would get involved in one degree or another....

    Also there is an element to be considered and that should turn out critical in case of such war: a democracy like that we find in the U.S.A. and Great Britain will be in clear disadvantage when waging a war against a totalitarian regime like China or "democracies" like that the Russians practice nowadays as the the U.S.A. and Great Britain are not good at bearing high casualties.

    You may ask "How Come?". Well, it should be simple.

    Russia and -especially- China have the full power to excersise a tight control of the mass media: radio, tv and, still, the internet. The U.S.A. and Great Britain can come nowhere close in performing such control of the mass media and broadcasting elements in their nations.

    The Chinese and the Russians could conceal almost all information regarding the progress of the war to their people, especially the casualties, and it is not like you will see a large group of Chinese mothers gathering outside government buildings demonstrating and claiming to see their loved sons sent to the war. Think what could happen to them.

    Any opinions?

    Cheers!
     
  2. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,441
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    MGR
    Location:
    Phila, Pa
    Definitely will be another great war. What will it look like? Good question. There is one thing for sure, it will not look anything like predicted. Most of us are very familiar with WW2. As a consequence, we see wars in terms of that conflict. For good reason too, it was the last "Great War". But the massed Tank Armies of the Soviets, Nazi and Western Allies, Great bomber formations and Massive Sea Battles will probably not happen again. At least not on the scale of WW2. There will be Air, Land and Sea conflicts, but they will be tempered by the affects of the economic engines of the countries involved.

    For instance, WW1 and WW2 were products of the Industrial Age. Massed weapons production was a logical byproduct of massed manufacturing ability. While that still exists, it is (or has been) being supplanted by the Information Age. What was done in 1945 by 1000 bomber raid can now be done with several very smart missles or a highly trained group of Specials Forces operators. The attacks will go for the eyes and ears of the opposition. Blind them, and all the combat power in the world goes for naught. Information for you and blinding your enemy will be the keys.

    That is not to say there will be no more Monte Cassinos, Hurtgen or Pelelius. There will be plenty of opportunities for massed forces to grind together. But the keys to future will be information and getting inside the enemy's information loop.

    Also, assaults on the enemy's will to fight, especially the home populace, will be stepped up. They will come in the form of disinformation as well as attacks on the civilian infrastructure. Denial of Service attacks, attacks on the power grid, worms, viruses, trojan horses as well as active attacks on the populace will all take place. Nobody knows how this will all turn out as it is more along the lines theory. But there are plans out there for it.

    In short, the attacks will be focused. Populations are so large that mass casualties generally have a negligible effect on the economic viability of a country but will increase the will to fight. Like I noted above, nobody knows exactly how this will all turn out so it will be interesting to say the least.

    Or...everybody starts chucking nukes. In which case, I hope I'm dead before it happens and not because of it.
     
  3. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    Absolutely there will be another great clash. We are witnessing global chaos of a grand scale already in Africa. Millions have died. Oh yeah. They don't count because they have nothing most of the world wants.

    My prediction. War over energy sources, water and/or food. Origination? Asia. Cause? Unchecked growth in China resulting in energy demands that cannot be met, mass disaffection of chinese poor (have and have nots) and the convenience of war to garner common focus (energy, historical land claims, past animosity with others).

    And did anyone read about Japan completing a study on the cost and timeline for Hydrogen Bomb development? Worstcase result was a few billion bucks and 5 years time. Pennies to the worlds second largest economy. But it was only a study. The Chinese feel better already.
     
  4. mkloby

    mkloby Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,561
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    USMC - Capt - 7532
    Location:
    Jacksonville, NC
    Didn't hear about that. But, I would be very eager to be fighting w/ the Japanese rather than against them... that economy can support a massive fighting machine. They only spend about 1% of gdp on defense... approx 40billion...
     
  5. DerAdlerIstGelandet

    DerAdlerIstGelandet Der Crew Chief
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    41,771
    Likes Received:
    687
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    A&P - Aircraft Technician
    Location:
    USA/Germany
    I think Asia or even Russia could be the setting of the next great one.
     
  6. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    look to the mid-east ..........

    it's almost but not quite Armageddon time :arrow:
     
  7. Udet

    Udet Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Timshatz:

    Interesting set of ideas.

    I quote this particular part of your posting:

    "Also, assaults on the enemy's will to fight, especially the home populace, will be stepped up. They will come in the form of disinformation as well as attacks on the civilian infrastructure. Denial of Service attacks, attacks on the power grid, worms, viruses, trojan horses as well as active attacks on the populace will all take place. Nobody knows how this will all turn out as it is more along the lines theory. But there are plans out there for it."

    Don´t you think the Chinese population is by far better "prepared" to resist that sort of warfare -and recuperate from shock- than the inhabitants of the so called western world?
     
  8. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    he makes a very good point about the use of electronics in the next conflict, particularly with our reliance on the internet and computers these days, a few big viruses or other malware would mess things up badly for either combattant...........
     
  9. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    And I have read about probes being done on a regular basis originating from China. Of course they deny that it is state sponsored.
     
  10. Erich

    Erich the old Sage
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 20, 2004
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    15
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Platonic Sphere
    don't worry Matt we have been probing China for years .............. ah hmmmmmmmm .......
     
  11. evangilder

    evangilder "Shooter"
    Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2004
    Messages:
    19,419
    Likes Received:
    137
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Occupation:
    Network Engineer/Photographer
    Location:
    Moorpark, CA
    Home Page:
    Definitely not one sided. Cyber threats are being measured and taken into account many times a day. It's not just China that these probes are coming from...
     
  12. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,441
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    MGR
    Location:
    Phila, Pa
    Udet, a clarification to your post is requested.

    Do you mean they are "closer to the ground" than the populace of the US and as a consequence, a DOS attack would not affect them as much as they are not so dependent on technology?

    Or, they are more technologically savy than the average US citizen and would restore their operations faster?

    Or, they are less lazy and inclined to improvise faster than the average Western citizen?

    Not dissing you, just looking for a POV (Point of View) for you question as that will affect the response.
     
  13. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,441
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    MGR
    Location:
    Phila, Pa
    Good point. The WWW oughta stand for the "Weenies Wild West". There are very few restrictions and a helluva lot of ruthless/slick operators on the Web. As Tarzan said to Jane, "It's a jungle out there".
     
  14. Udet

    Udet Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2004
    Messages:
    1,258
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Timshats, hi:

    Although your first question would seem to address the issue originally in mind, my viewpoint comes in a broader sense: lifestyles, religion, political systems, economy and of course the power of the armed forces of those nations are to be considered as they would play a critical role in case of war.

    It will still be interesting to read your opinion regarding the fact the bulk of the Chinese population is not so dependent on technology. As an interesting remark, it should be noted more than 1,000,000 chinese do not have access to the internet, more than three times the entire population of the U.S.A.

    China is indeed superlative in virtually every deparment.

    In the west...USA, Canada, France, Germany, Sweden, Norway and England to name a few...take away the net, cable TV, PC´s, laptops, cell phones, blackberries, DVDs, and iPods from the population and see what they are capable of doing. It is not that i suggest the Chinese are capable of "taking away" those means and devices from people in western powers, rather, it is just an attempt to illustrate how attached to technology means and devices most people in the western powers are.

    It would be just like depriving the British Empire of its fleet and navigational means at the zenith of Great Britain´s dominance.

    Hard moments and tragedy usually activate survival and self-preservation instincts among lifeforms, however, and in view of the kind of life one can see in the west, i wonder if such instinct might be in a severe degenerative process.

    Would the present-day inhabitants of Germany endure the sort of horror their forebearers went through during world war two when the western allied air forces incinerated them with their cities? Improbable.

    A significant part of the inhabitants of northern/western europe and the U.S.A. are part of a culture focused on leisure, pleasure and consumism.

    Do you agree when i say the Chinese system can exercise a far greater control of broadcasting elements than any western nation can come close to attain?

    I admit my knowledge regarding electronic warfare is about zero, so can you elaborate further on how would the U.S.A. take full advantage of electronic warfare over the Chinese?

    Unless knowing of something i might be utterly unaware of -something that is likely-, i still believe the Chinese people find themselves in better shape to go through the horrors of war.

    I agree with the one who said, let´s hope such a thing never happens.

    Cheers!
     
  15. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    i have to say i agree with Udet, the oppression placed on the Chineese by their government and their relative technology free lifestyles means they'd be better placed to face a war, not to mention the fact they'd still have a phenominal population and any war China is in would rely on China's immence man power..........
     
  16. plan_D

    plan_D Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2004
    Messages:
    11,985
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    I'd have expected everyone to understand that dictatorships, of any kind, are more suited for war situations than democracies. World War II is a perfect example of that fact, it's been said countless times that the only way we could defeat the evil Nazi dictatorship was to find an even worst Soviet one.

    To face a war, life needs to be cheap. Democracies put a lot of emphasis on life, so they fall short when the time comes to spend peoples lives for a nation.

    In the "good 'ole days" of savagery, and monarchy we had no problem where democracy and war weariness were concerned.

    We will have a heavy-weight conflict again, and most likely in our life time. It's upsetting to think that people seem to think mankind has changed from the time of Julius Caeser. We love to go to war, sorry but it's true! We've been fighting from the dawn of man 'til now, and every once in a while the whole "civilised" world comes into conflict.

    Classical History:

    Greece vs. Persia
    Romans vs. the known world (Gauls, Carthaginians, Britons etc.)

    Dark Ages:

    Danes, Swedes, British Isles, France and Germany were constantly smashing each other to pieces. The Huns rampage across Europe. The whole of Asia is ripping itself to pieces.

    Middle-Ages:

    Well, what can I say? All of Europe and Asia was smashing each other to pieces. Hundred Years War and all that business!

    Imperial Ages:

    War in the Americas, and Europe still. Mongolians have fun in Asia. The Asians and Middle-Eastern lot are still warring .

    Industrial Ages :

    Now the whole world has been discovered so its just more places for us all the fight.

    Then we got World War I and World War II - and everyone thinks never again! What about Korea, Vietnam, more wars in the Middle-East. The only thing we've got missing - a massive war, it's well overdue going by histories standards.

    Man has been fighting from day one, and it will continue fighting 'til its last day. Every now and then it kicks off into a massive war.

    "Men grow tired of sleep, love, singing and dancing sooner than war" - Homer

    (And no, not The Simpsons Homer, you dipshits) :lol:
     
  17. mkloby

    mkloby Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,561
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    USMC - Capt - 7532
    Location:
    Jacksonville, NC
    China's ability to wage war completely depends upon the nature of the conflict itself... bear in mind China doesn't have much when it comes to power projection capabilities...
     
  18. Matt308

    Matt308 Glock Perfection
    Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2005
    Messages:
    20,140
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    Washington State
    Yet. And it is the asymetric power projections that are most worrisome. Kinda like the Maginot Line and the Germans just running around it.
     
  19. mkloby

    mkloby Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2006
    Messages:
    3,561
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Occupation:
    USMC - Capt - 7532
    Location:
    Jacksonville, NC
    I'm sorry I'm not seeing the parallel...? There's ALWAYS a weapon to defeat anything, unless you're The Almighty.

    It will take china a very long time to build up power projection capabilities.

    Does anyone know the veracity of this "statistic?" I remember reading/seeing somewhere a little while back something that stated that only about 1% of chinese produced steel is considered quality and is of the grade that would be used by western nations for building/construction. Their production of the alloy is supposed to be extremely poor quality.
     
  20. the lancaster kicks ass

    the lancaster kicks ass Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2003
    Messages:
    19,980
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    38
    our standards don't matter though, it's obviously good enough for them so they're obviously using it in their military.........
     
Loading...

Share This Page