Women flew missions in WW2!!
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ok, i guss this thread kinda turned into a argument, but i just wanted to share some research notes.
No argument is taking place. It's a discussion board. When someone posts a topic, the members of the board discuss it. When someone posts inaccuracies, they can expect corrections. Usually it is friendly and constructive.
My friend Kathleen had barely a week in the Captain's chair of the EMB145 before she had her first all female crew. The FO and the flight attendants threw a party for her at the hotel, and carried out a ceremonial "clipping of the shirt tail", thus depriving her of a spare uniform shirt on the first day of a five day sequence.
MiTasol
1st Lieutenant
It is important to remember that in Gorbachevs time western women were demanding equal rights like soviet women had and soviet women were demanding the lifestyle that western women had. The grass always looks greener from the other side.
It wasn't about respect, or desperation; it was an earned position.
Women demanded to be treated as equals, and proved that they were capable.
There was initially a lot of resistance from military hierarchy that they had to overcome, and when they were first given the opportunity, it was in outdated trainer aircraft (Po-2). Imagine going into a bombing run in something like a Stearman, but slower. From the Night Witches squadron, they proved that they were capable, and earned their place in combat squadrons.
Barrett
Senior Airman
The Soviet "night witches" are extremely well known among aviation students--easily checked online. Probably rare to find aero fans who haven't heard of them.
As for the Russians presumably displaying more respect for women than other nations: as properly noted on this thread, the reason females were committed to combat was that Moscow was short of MANpower. Something like 27 million Russian dead in the Great Patriotic War was roughly 15% of the population (itself a controversial topic, given inept prewar census taking, but I digress.)
FWIW:
I knew the late Alex Zuyev who flew a MiG-29 to Turkey and thence became a western Intelligence Asset. He was THE biggest male chauvinist I ever knew, and believe me: that's saying something. He insisted that the night witches were largely Stalin PR in order to boost morale and depict The Modern Soviet Woman as contributing to defeat of the Axis Monsters. However, there have been credible books & documentaries about the NWs, and I don't think I know anyone who doubts their bona-fides.
As for the Russians presumably displaying more respect for women than other nations: as properly noted on this thread, the reason females were committed to combat was that Moscow was short of MANpower. Something like 27 million Russian dead in the Great Patriotic War was roughly 15% of the population (itself a controversial topic, given inept prewar census taking, but I digress.)
FWIW:
I knew the late Alex Zuyev who flew a MiG-29 to Turkey and thence became a western Intelligence Asset. He was THE biggest male chauvinist I ever knew, and believe me: that's saying something. He insisted that the night witches were largely Stalin PR in order to boost morale and depict The Modern Soviet Woman as contributing to defeat of the Axis Monsters. However, there have been credible books & documentaries about the NWs, and I don't think I know anyone who doubts their bona-fides.
Before Po-2(U-2) squadrons became fully operational there were already other women flying in bombers, transports, fighters, CAS. Probably, in recon aircraft as well.
For example, Valentina Grizodubova took command of her regiment in March 1942.
The first three "female" regiments (bomber, fighter, light/night bomber) were formed during autumn 1941. After the training they began to operate during spring-summer 1942. More units were formed after that.
Katya Zelenko was probably the first but not the last Soviet female "shturmovik" pilot. She took part in Winter War on R-Z and flew 40 missions on Su-2 in 1941 before KIA.
There were women in ordinary "all-male" regiments as well. Pilots, navigators, gunners, etc. And many more in ground personnel.
Some interesting links.
List of female Heroes of the Soviet Union - Wikipedia
In Russian, but hopefully can be translated with online tools:
Советские женщины-летчики пилоты военной авиации - Красные соколы. Русские авиаторы летчики-асы 1914-1953
fubar57
General
The Soviet Woman was supposed to perform according to the Communist doctrine of the "women liberation". Gender equality was among the main principles of the ideology. On the one hand it created a new social lift for many talented women. Aviators were among them. On the other hand, it forced women into hard labor during the period of industrialization and, later, during WWII.
Female aviators were considered elite and were more or less protected by publicity. Hundreds of thousands of other women were less lucky and they shared all hardships of ordinary ground troop unit or the production line, working shifts of 12 hours and longer.
One of the saddest stories I read was about several girls who were executed near Stalingrad in 1942. They served as ground observers on the left bank of Volga and allegedly they missed the bombers raid. 18 to 22 years old, no training, no equipment, living in foxholes in the steppes...
tengu1979
Airman
Desperation was one thing. I think you forget USSR was Communist. While it was nowhere near todays feminism levels it was still in their creed to promote equality. Although it was more a publicity stunt. Loads of women were spies dropped by parashutes behind enemy lines as well.
Also part of the communist creed is that culpability for an action (or inaction) is based on the consequences of that action, not its intentions. Failure is a crime against the people and the state and its perpetrators must be liquidated. That's functionally true in our society as well, though we pretend otherwise. They, at least, were honest about it.
Yes, failure as a crime is the right formula. That principle was not proclaimed officially (at least after Stalin's era) but it was paramount. Not without the exceptions, of course.
But honesty was not there. One of the pillars of the Soviet ideology was what Orwell brilliantly called doublethink.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,979
- Jun 25, 2013
The nazis, among other things, forbade women from many occupations, largely relegating them to the domestic sphere. Restrictions keeping people in their place was, historically, one of the basic tenets of anti-liberal movements, of which nazism was a very extreme example, is that people should know their place. For women, that was at home, under control of husbands or fathers.
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 40,385
- Mar 26, 2007
Where did you get that from? The woman part?
I was about to ask the same question, it seems that on the western front the Nazis were fighting Nazis, without reliable contraception it is very difficult for women not to have a "domestic role", The British had a policy that women should not be in combatant roles it isn't a "Nazi" idea.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 3,979
- Jun 25, 2013
That's a total a myth and originates in what is mostly post war pseudo-academic or ideological nonsense. I think it has legs because there is a sort of "absurdio reductium Hitler" like Godwins law.
Under the National Socialists Government Women could become doctors, lawyers, film makers (like film maker Lenni Riefenstahl), Nuclear Physicists (like Klara Doppel) and if they wanted to military test pilots (such as Melitta von Stauffenberg and Hanna Reitsch) . National Socialist ideology tended to idealise the female role as mothers for entirely sensible reasons that everyone atavistically understands. If you stop idealising the mother your people will die out from low birth rates as we are seeing in any western country. Some branches of contemporary feminism literally link monogamy and motherhood to Nazism but I think its fair to say such feminists have ulterior non feminist, malevolent agendas.
Hanna Rietsch did critical work in developing the Ju 87, Dornier Do 17, barrage balloon cutting equipment and the Me 163. She flew into Berlin in the final days to rescure Hitler (he refused to run). Staufenberg was shot down on a hop between aerodromes by a P51 in an unarmed light plane. Large numbers of women served as pilot instructors, several as test pilots and in that capacity undertook extremely dangerous high attrition missions flying supplies for the Stalingrad airlift and Demnyask pocket airlift.
Doppel was the first Phyicists to calculate a critical reactor dimension that would have worked. (5 tons of heavy water between two concentric spheres of natural uranium)
Women operated FLAK guns, particularly aiming and many of them saw ground combat as their units had to fight themselves out of encirclement.
Women were heavily engaged in the German economy and were more mobilised than British and American women however a higher proportion of it was in agriculture since 50% of British food came from the USA whereas Germany grew 85% of her own. This also dovetails into the myth that the German economy was not on a war time footing until 1942. In reality the labour shortage prevented shift work from being run. They attempted to make up with mass production and automation techniques such as large presses and riveting robots that scaned the surface of a wing under punch tape control.
How many people today have read Orwell, do you (double) think?
When it came to gender roles, the Nazis tended to be traditionalists. That doesn't mean that all traditionalists tended to be, ergo, Nazis.
Cheers,
Wes
The direction things are going, he should be required reading.
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