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When carrier launched strikes by both sides in daylight have great difficulty or even fail to locate the opposite side's ships how does it work that a night attack especially by AC that can barely go faster than a carrier at flank speed can succeed? At Coral Sea the IJN was behind a weather front that greatly hindered the US AC in finding them.
However I have at long last become convinced that the Stringbag was a war winning AC. I now wonder why the RN did not dust off HMS Victory. Victory would have been a superb stealth warship because her radar signature would be almost negligible since she was mostly wood. Her slow speed would have increased the accuracy of her guns. The Italians would have never detected her approach because she was so quiet and even if they detected her they would have thought they were seeing a mirage.. She could have gallivanted around the Med for months without being replenished which was a weak point of the RN. The FAA might have even cleared her spar deck and launched Swordfishs from her. Just kidding
This all takes a well trained crew, and an aircraft set up for the purpose. Because operating at night in the late 30's and early 40's was an inherently dangerous activity, you dont want a particualalry twitchy High Performance a/c....you want docility and relaibility. The Swordfish had this in spades. I dont see why the TBD could not have done a similar job....its just that the USN over-estimated the types survivability in daylight and dismissed too quickly the potentialities of night strike The Americans could have trained their TBD crews
Splitting hairs and footnotes - I am doing that because it seems much of what you have to say is based on your opinion rather than fact and do understand if you haven't figured it out by now that many of the members who participate on this site indulge discussion with fact and documented credible evidence (and more times than most provide references for it) and when it's not given are usually called on it...
Now with that said, you made a statement "Douglas's approach was different from Boeing's, and I am basing that from looking at what they designed and built. Douglas built some very good stuff, but they were much more prolific designers than Boeing", what are you basing that on? Douglas built a larger variety of military aircraft in the post WW2 years based on being awarded contracts based on a solicitation from the government. Ed Heinemann and his team just didn't sit around and decide to come up with aircraft to build - they did so based on the government requiring specific aircraft. For example (all from Wiki Sources);
"The Skyhawk was designed by Douglas Aircraft's Ed Heinemann in response to a U.S. Navy call for a jet-powered attack aircraft to replace the older Douglas AD Skyraider (later redesignated A-1 Skyraider)."
"The piston-engined Skyraider was designed during World War II to meet US Naval requirements for a carrier-based, single-seat, long-range, high performance dive/torpedo bomber, to follow-on from earlier types such as the Helldiver and Avenger"
"In January 1948, the Chief of Naval Operations issued a requirement to develop a long-range, carrier-based attack plane that could deliver a 10,000 lb (4,536 kg) bomb load or a nuclear weapon" (A3D requirement)
"US Air Force involvement in the Korean War highlighted an urgent need for a high performance day/night tactical bomber. To speed the availability of such an aircraft it was planned to procure a land-based version of the A3D Skywarrior then being developed for the US Navy. To this end Douglas was given a contract for five pre-production Douglas RB-66A all-weather/night photo-reconnaissance aircraft"
I could dig further and come with specifics about the exact contracts and specifications…
During the post war years and especially after the Korean War there was a boom in military aircraft procurement. Usually the government asked for paper proposals and the government would widdle down the list until 2 or 3 finalists were accepted. At that point each one had to come off with a prototype and a fly-off occurred with winner take all. Sometimes the contractor was paid for their prototype.
During this period Boeing was very busy with the B-47 and B-52 as well as preparing their assault into the commercial aircraft industry. More than likely some of the solicitations that Douglas went after were probably sent to Boeing and they were returned "NO BID" mainly because Boeing was busy with other programs (B-47, B-52 Bomarc, KC-97, KC-50 conversion, KC-135). As a matter of fact Boeing was so busy during this period some of the B-47 production was subcontracted to Lockheed.
You want to say Douglas "were much more prolific designers than Boeing," well that wasn't because Boeing wasn't capable, it was what the government was offering and what companies were able or wanted to bid on.
Now you gave the example of the Boeing XF8B – here's a statement from Wiki regarding this aircraft, its cancellation and Boeing's path in the post war years…
"Although testing of the promising XF8B concept continued into 1946 by the USAAF and 1947 by the US Navy, the end of the war in the Pacific and changing postwar strategy required that Boeing concentrate on building large land-based bombers and transports."
So you see, this is the way it really works. I've worked for Lockheed, Boeing and was a contractor with McDonnell Douglas and several other smaller aviation related defense contractors and been through this process and worked with people in my early years who worked on some of the aircraft spoken about here. Military aircraft design, especially in the post was based on a requirement driven by the government and there was very little "private ventures" being offered up because of the risk of losing money.
So with that this said, you are entitled to your opinions based on what you have read in books or seen on TV documentaries, be advised however that some of us have been employed in this environment and seen firsthand how aircraft manufacturers work and compete with each other as well as the way the government picks and chooses who will build what.
The TBD was grossly overweight, underpowered and consequently had very poor range because the engine had to be run at high throttle settings to stay airborne. Adding ASV radar would have been nearly impossible and ultimately pointless because of the poor range. A Swordfish weighed about 8500lb, had 775hp and had 607 sq ft of wing area so it had lots of lifting capacity. The Albacore weighed about 10,500lb, had 1100hp and 623 sq ft of wing area. The TBD weighed 10,000lb+ (maybe as much as 11,000lb), had 900hp but only 422 sq ft of wing area or about the same as a Barracuda which weighed 14000lb but had 1640hp, and the Barracuda was considered underpowered!
Not a blasphemous enemy, just someone who was a little misinformed about a few things, perhaps too many Osprey books but ok, if you say so.... So when I pointed out this difference, I don't know why you took up the cause as if I were some sort of blasphemous enemy, when in fact, your lengthy reply just brought much more evidence (which I do not have at my fingertips, but you do) that I was right. So thank you for explaining my position in more intricate detail, and adding a perspective that I could never provide to corroborate what I had already concluded.
Not the Swordfish
I'll see your Brewster and raise you a Blackburn Botha.
This would most likely been fatal and Fletcher would never have done this. The Japanese plan for Midway was to entice the American carriers out to fight and were looking for the carriers. If they had found the American fleet first, it would have been annihilated. The American plan was to surprise the Japanese and attack first. Fletcher could not afford to have his fleet operating in a patrol area of the Japanese for any longer than necessary. As it was, they were fortunate to be missed by the Japanese patrols. The carriers were mobile were difficult enough to find in the daylight, would have been near impossible at night.Swordfish were launched at taranto at a range of 170 miles, and the round trip was over 400 miles. Extrapolating for the Midway operation, the TBDs with at least a 100 extra range (apparently), it should be theoretically possible to hold the range and close to a launch point in the evening. Alternatively, launch the SBDs and hold the (in reality nonexistent) night capable torpedo bombers until evening to clean up any cripples.
It wasn't planned that way.In any event I dont buy the argument that sacrificing the TBDs was necessary to pull the Zeroes away from McCluskys VBs
Information I have found was that Lt. Commander Williamson successfully launched his torpedo against the Conte di Cavour before being shot down.Correct, except that you forgot the two aircraft that were shot down, and whilst launching, did so outside range
According to "The Royal Navy in World War II", out of ten torpedo drops, six were successful , or 60%.these torpedoes are believed to have bottomed. I should have checked however. Depending on whether you want to include or exclude the two aircraft lost, you have either 55% or 66%. It is still a record either way...earlier in July three swordfish armed with torpedoes managed to sink 4 ships, including a moored sub, with three torpedoes. Thats a hit rate of 125%.
Too small a sample to arrive at a trend.You might also want to consider the raid on Dakar by Hermes. July 1940, 4 torps launch (2 with contact pistols, 2 with magnetic exploders, set to run 38 feet (too low) , 3 on track, wto with magnetic exploders detonated early, on with contact pistolknocked a hole in the side 24feet by 16 feet (from memory. effectively sank the richelieu 9for a year). Thats an accuracy rate of 75%.
The mission of the Japanese at Midway was to draw the Americans into a fight and destroy them. This was what they were prepared to do. Had they detected the carriers before the launch or, even knew of their existence, the outcome would most likely been quite different.At Midway the Japanese had to complete a mission....this made their movement forward mandatory. The Americans could approach the battle problem with a much greater level of certainty. same situation applied to Cortal Sea.
According to Wikipedia,Incorrect. The British launched swordfish fully armed as reconnaisance machines during the Bismarck operation, and USN SBDs routinely undertook similar armed recons for all the major battles in 1942
For search missions I would guess added fuel would be more important than having a 2000 lb torpedo.Ark Royal's Swordfish were already searching nearby when the Catalina found her. Several torpedo bombers also located the battleship, about 60 nmi (110 km; 69 mi) away from Ark Royal. Somerville ordered an attack as soon as the Swordfish returned and were rearmed with torpedoes.
It was the plan, however, from "At Dawn We Slept"(the torps were the first ordinance to be launched in the first wave, a deliberate decision by the japanese.
Although he knew Takahashi had erred, he had no choice but to lead his torpedomen to the target as quickly as possible. However, Takahashi was well on his way. Thus, it happened that bombs instead of torpedoes struck the initial blow.
Okay, so of the first strike, 9 torpedoes were dropped, all missed their targets, even the ones that targeted the British ship. On the second strike, of 9 torpedoes dropped, three hit their target. So, for the entire strike on Bismarck, 18 torpedoes were dropped and three struck their targets, even the ones that targeted the British ship, or 17%. I agree that reports vary.Sorry bu not correct. according to John Assmussen, ("Bismarck - the fatal torpedo hit"), whilst there is dispute about that last strike (by 15 a/c, 9 launches) it appears most likley that there were three hits in the second strike. There were no hits by the first strike....none were launched at the bismarck, as the Brits mistook Sheffield as the german ship.
With a lot ifs, these planes could have changed things at Midway. If they had good torpedoes, if they had trained Navy or Army pilots, and if they had twenty aircraft or so, they could have caused havoc to the Japanese carriers.The Japanese found the B-26s speedy and difficult to bring down".
Actually, I did not have to check sources. The attack occurred around 2100 hours May 26. A check with sunset at 48 degrees north shows it to be about 2050. It is well known for those who live in the North latitudes that twilight last a long time during this period of time. It was not a night attack. Visibility was poor however and radar was needed. The photo at wiki shows it not to be dark, if the photo is correct.Finally, I suggest that you read your sources before posting them. Not that wiki is great, but relevantly, from the article you posted it says......"The attack went in, in almost darkness, at around 21:00 but once again the Swordfish torpedo bombers found Bismarck with their ASV II radar"
This has nothing to do with the difficulty of hitting targets, only having targets to hit.There is no comparison between the two operations, I agree, however each had its own set of problems no less daunting for the respective combatants. Whilst taranto was a known location, the location of the italian fleet was not. In fact it was an amazing strole of good luck that the italians remained in the harbour since they knew the strike was coming.
I don't think the Bismarck falls into this category. They did locate it by radar but I believe they had directions from the Sheffield.And in any event Swordfish crews on repeated occasions demonstrated in spades that they could locate, attack and sink targets whose position was not known, moving. And they did it at night.
However, night attacks were generally ineffective, for the simple reason that the aircraft crew could not see the submarine. The radar guided them to a mile of the submarine, but not closer. On 21 December 1941 an ASV-equipped Swordfish made the first successful night attack on an U-boat, but such remained exceptions.
Of course idiotic. The Japanese had almost 140 ships that could be located over maybe a third of a million square miles of sea. On the first night there were no position reports of the Japanese fleet. You would be searching for four ships out of 140 some odd Japanese ship with 40 aircraft flying at a hundred miles and hour with a 38 mile range radar. I don't think I have to calculate the probabilities of the success of that effort to show it won't work.You have not explained why attempting a night strike would be "idiotic". I would suggest that merely reveals set and predictable thinking.
How? This was not an unprotected battleship but several powerful fleets that included carriers, battleships, cruisers, etc. with on-going air patrols to locate American ships. I don't think there was radar available on cruisers at this time. This would be very difficult. If the American carriers were discovered, the Japanese would close quickly and dispense with the American fleet per plan.I agree, except that there is more than one way to skin a cat. For a start with a night capable force, there was absolutely no need to get his TG so banged up as it was. The Japanese had absolutely no defence to night capability at that time. If the Carriers could be located and kept at range in the day(greater than 240 miles for the japanese strike aircraft)
They would most likely be at the bottom of the sea.Parsifal said:]during the night Fletcher coul;d have turned his force around , launched at that range (240 miles) and be closing the range with his ships whilst his aircraft were enroute and eturning. His TG would have had about four hours at night to close, whilst the strike hit the japanese and returned. The round trip in that scenario is about 360 miles (240 out, 120 back) ....well within both the TBD and Swordfish capabilities. Provided the strike connects, the Japanese are going to be in no position to retaliate the next morning, and fletcher could have been home in time for tea, with barely a scratch. If the strike fails to connect, the Americans are in a world of hurt, but not really any worse off than they were historically
Other reports was that night intercept of the ASV Mk II was mostly ineffective.
British ASV Radars - Technical pages - Fighting the U-boats - uboat.net
Of course idiotic. The Japanese had almost 140 ships that could be located over maybe a third of a million square miles of sea. On the first night there were no position reports of the Japanese fleet. You would be searching for four ships out of 140 some odd Japanese ship with 40 aircraft flying at a hundred miles and hour with a 38 mile range radar. I don't think I have to calculate the probabilities of the success of that effort to show it won't work.
Not a blasphemous enemy, just someone who was a little misinformed about a few things, perhaps too many Osprey books but ok, if you say so...
LOL-- sometimes it's hard to find good info. . . . getting better at it. . .
So--- have we concluded yet what the worst bomber of WWII was?
They would most likely be at the bottom of the sea.
You don't have to be instrument rated to fly at night but I believe all naval aviatiors of the period did have instrument training. Flying instruments in those days were very basic and there were few nav aids used for IMC verctoring and landing.In hindsight it may have been possible to have done the job on the carriers at Midway at night in just the SBDs, provided we could locate the carriers, and provided those pilots were instrument-rated. I know at least later in the War the pilots were trained on just that, instruments, and night dive-bombing. Still, I'll agree, a lot of practical problems, and I don't think I'd have taken the chance on committing my pilots and maintenance crews on an operation like that, personally, especially when I think of what was at stake.