You are in charge of the Luftwaffe: July 1940

Timppa said:

Playing the evil Nazi / "Butcher" Harris here:

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He was sometimes known as "Butch" which is quite different from "Butcher". Butch was a name applied to a forthright,tenacious or determined individual. Butcher is an inappropriate post war revision which I whole heartedly discourage.

He was also known as "Bert" which,for reasons I cannot explain, seems to have been given to people with the surname Harris at that time and of course "Bomber".

Cheers
Steve

Defeating Britain isn't the objective. Germany must make continuing the war more expensive then signing a peace treaty. Then Britain will quit the war.

davebender said:

Defeating Britain isn't the objective. Germany must make continuing the war more expensive then signing a peace treaty. Then Britain will quit the war.

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The objective must be to force Britain out of the war. If not defeat in the sense of invasion,a victory march up the Mall etc a defeat of Fighter Command would have been neccessary. The Germans had to be in a position to force Britain to negotiate for peace. I have indicated earlier that this is not a far fetched objective. All Germany wanted in 1940 was a freehand in continental Europe. What Germany might have demanded later is anyone's guess.
Cheers
Steve

That works both ways. Luftwaffe operations over England will proceed at glacial speed until they have the right tools for the job.

davebender said:

That works both ways. Luftwaffe operations over England will proceed at glacial speed until they have the right tools for the job.

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With the exception of drop tanks for the Bf 109 I believe that they had the right tools,or at least tools that could do the job.
I'm not a fan of mining,it offers a very poor return on investment. Torpedoes were notoriously ineffective and unreliable. During the German operation to clear the Crimea the Luftwaffe attacked a Soviet convoy which included a heavy cruiser and several destroyers.

Von Richthofen's comments on the attack are revealing.

"Fliegerfuhrer Sud attempted [to sink it] with II./KG 26,the old Group from Luneburg. Absolutely pathetic.They fired off 29 torpedoes without any success!"

Doenitz said that about 1 in 3 torpedos launched from his U-Boats in the first half of the war failed to explode.

Use the Bf 109s,with their increased range and tactical flexibility,as escorts for the Ju 87s,medium bombers and more importantly the Bf 110s. Don't pretend that the Bf 110 is a competent fighter in this theatre. Use it as a fast bomber as units like Erpr.Gr.210 did with considerable success. Keep attacking the RAF's airfields and infrastructure. There's no harm in having a go at the Chain Home radar stations. Just because they are difficult targets doesn't make them impossible to disable as the Luftwaffe demonstrated. II Gruppe and the stabsschwarm of KG 51 attacked Ventnor on 12 August,putting the station out of action for three days. It's important to follow up these raids.
Without early warning it might be possible to catch and destroy the RAF where it was most vulnerable,on the ground. This again is something the Luftwaffe had done to enemy Air Forces before and would do again.

Cheers

Steve

Why do you think that?

Type UC II minelaying submarines
German Type UC II submarine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If judged only by the numbers of enemy vessels destroyed, the UC II is the most successful submarine design in history: According to modern estimates, they sank more than 1800 enemy vessels

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Because for the tens of thousands of mines laid,by whatever means, and sometimes at considerable risk,very few ships were sunk by them. I concede that the primary purpose of sea mines is not to sink ships but to deny certain sea areas to an enemy but they are not terribly good at this either.
During the entire war German mines sank 534 merchant vessels (slightly less than 1.5m GRT) about 10 destroyers and the unfortunate cruiser HMS Neptune.
From a British perspective defensive mine laying was seen as a waste of time. The Northern Barrage in particular was described by CinC Home Fleet as "the least profitable voluntary major undertaking of the war". Defensive minefields placed after 1940 can now be seen to have been an unnecessary drain on materials and manpower which involved considerable effort.
Offensive minelaying, particularly that carried out by Coastal Forces ML's and MTB's as well as by aircraft proved more rewarding and the British deemed it a worthwhile effort.Coastal Forces laid 6,642 mines and claimed 134 casualties (Ratio: 1:48 ) Aircraft laid 55,646 mines and claimed 1,666 casualties (Ratio: 1:33). Unfortunately I don't think the Germans had the wherewithall to lay the sort of numbers of mines required in 1940.

I never questioned the efficacy of German U-Boats. I simply repeated a comment by Grossadmiral Doenitz about German torpedoes in the first half of the war which must surely encompass 1940. I suspect Doenitz knew more about the reliability of German torpedoes than we do.

Cheers

Steve

I agree. WWI era British minefields in general were poorly planned. It didn't help that WWI era British mines were also generally of poor quality.

That doesn't mean mine warfare per se is a waste of time. Germany achieved excellent results with sea mines in both world wars. So did USA vs Japan during 1945 and 1915 Ottomans at the Dardanelles.

Aerial mines laid at night are especially effective for closing enemy seaports. Exactly what Germany was trying to accomplish at London and Liverpool during the fall of 1940 and Spring of 1941. The only catch is you need enough mines for the job.

The mining advantage in early WW2 was the magnetic and acoustic triggers that were virtually impossible to sweep until the British captured examples and discovered the mechanisms vulnerabilities.
The Magnetic Mine
They were much more effective than the contact mines of WW1, but weren't used in large numbers because of the lack of units trained to deploy them; those that were trained were more often than not used for bombing British cities instead.
Hell, even KG100 was used as a naval bombing unit from April 1940 until August 1940 despite being Germany's sole pathfinder/strategic bomber unit!

Part of military strategy is to do nothing. Italy would have been far better off doing 'nothing.'

Again. ...Germany was not forced to go to war....it wanted too.

That's only partially correct. Germany was not forced to invade Poland.

Germany had no choice about fighting Britain and France after those nations declared war.

You need enough mines, you need restricted areas, you also need your opponent to be a little lacking in mine sweeping ability.

Go ahead and drop 20-30 mines per night and then have 6-12 minesweepers come out every morning and take most of them out.

This is why there was a cat and mouse game with the different exploders/triggers/fuses, including counters that would let a certain number of ships pass before turning "on".

The "1915 Ottomans at the Dardanelles"is a bit dubious as the minefields were covered by shore batteries which could shoot up the mine sweepers. Unless the Germans can hinder/limit the British ability to sweep mines it becomes a race. Can the Germans lay them faster than the British can sweep them. A big reason for laying at night was to keep the mine drops from being spotted by the British.

davebender said:

That's only partially correct. Germany was not forced to invade Poland.

Germany had no choice about fighting Britain and France after those nations declared war.

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Germany HAD A CHOICE. Don't invade Poland.

Both France and Britain SAID they would go to war if Germany attacked Poland. Hitler didn't believe them and it is France and Britain's fault?

Shortround6 said:

Can the Germans lay them faster than the British can sweep them. A big reason for laying at night was to keep the mine drops from being spotted by the British.

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Which also leads to them being dropped in the wrong place,like a mud flat,precisely how the British got their hands on the latest magnetic mine. Furthermore the aircraft dropping the mines were spotted.



Cheers
Steve

davebender said:

That's only partially correct. Germany was not forced to invade Poland.

Germany had no choice about fighting Britain and France after those nations declared war.

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So it was the fault of the British and France? Sorry your logic is flawed and faulty.

If Germany had not started a war of aggression against Poland, France and Britain would not have been forced into war against Germany. You got it backwards.

Shortround6 said:

Germany HAD A CHOICE. Don't invade Poland.

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Only if the nazis hadn't come to power in 1933. The inevitable result of nazi economic policy was a war by 1940/41 at the latest. In some respects 1939 was earlier than they wanted.
There was a grim inevitability about the outbreak of WW2 from the mid 1930s onwards. This is not hindsight,it was a widely held view at the time.
Cheers
Steve

"Theres a hole in my bucket, dear Lizza, dear Lizza....."

i believe hitler thought that britian and france were merely giving lips service but when it came down to it they would back off. he had heard a lot of sabre rattling with just about every act he committed but no one took action. he probably thought this was going to be the status quo. remember russia also invaded poland too...they didnt declare war on russia.

ok i am in charge of the LW. i am going to agree with some of the earlier posts... and follow through with the strategy and dont change tactics to bombing cities until you have air supremecy and can do so with little or no opposition. let strategy and tactics rule your decisions not emotion or payback.

1. you have to do something with the radar. its the UK's ace in the hole. you must nulify it. it allows the RAF to reduce patrols and concentrate their resources where air supremecy is needed. some ways to do this are...using one or all in conjuntion.
A. try different methods of bombing those sites. even if you have to use an early unguided version of Mistels.
B. send in stripped down versions of your fastest T/E to deploy chaff to send false signals. use any and all countermeasures before and
during operations.
C. try to develope electonic or other ways to jam the radar signal or make them otherwise useless
D. develope tactics to fool the radar into thinking small ( decoy ) formations are large ( maybe by towing unmanned gliders or some sort
of kite ) and reduce the signature of large ( attack formations ) to appear small.


2. you MUST have range for your fighters. Drop tanks are a must. I would look into constructing refueling fields as close as i can get to the coast. they would only have fuel at the time the fighters arrive. fighters would "top off" fuel tanks before going across the channel to give them the optimum time over the uk.

3. unfetter your fighters. let them do what they do best...hunt and kill fighters. dont make them stick exclusively with the bombersbut give free reign to let at least a portion of them persue the attackers. use the bombers as bait to draw up the RAF. Have a portion of your fighters ( now with extended range ) fan out ( zemke style ) ahead and wreak as much havoc as they can on the RAF airflields. like was mentioned...use 110s as fast bombers, chaff spreaders, or in a defensive anti bomber anti-shipping role.

4. Bomb every RAF facility, factory ( arms and aircraft), supply routes...bridges..railway...river...

5. no rest for the RAF. I would continue the attacks night and day hopefully rotating my pilots for rest. I would reduce my actual attacks certain days but increase feint attacks ...have ac fly to where the RAF would have to scramble and then turn around with out engaging. trade fuel for sleep.


this would do for starters...

drop 20-30 mines per night and then have 6-12 minesweepers come out every morning and take most of them out.

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It's to be expected the port will need to be reseeded with mines on a weekly basis. As long as the seaport remains closed Germany wins.

Britain is an island. It has many ports.

If I had plans to go to war with Britian I would consider that as a navy war. And I would build U-boot not bombers.