zero vs. 109

[Hornet_Driver]

The Japanese "versions" of the Me 262 and the Me 163 were inspired but completely built on there own. Hense the slightly different look and design. Examples here are some pics of the German and Japanese versions of them to see the difference in the designs.

Specifically look at the tail of the Me 262 compared to the Kikka and then the cockpit and nose of the Me 163 compared to the J8 M.

I should have clarified that Japanese variants of ME-262 and -163 were designed and built from versions of the -262 and -163 that were sent to Japan. Just like the present day JASDF F-2, which from the outside looks like an F16, but is built from designs and technology sharing between Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and GD. I got a chance to look at an F-2 during a weekend cross-country a few years ago up to Misawa AB for some ACM with the USAF Viper drivers. I akin the F-2 and F-16 to the FA-18 Hornet and Super Hornet. The F-2 has a 25% larger wing area and is a little taller in the tailplane and has a wider intake.

Thanks for the pics.

 

[Glider]

I don't know about the Japanese version of the Me163 but I do have some information on the design of their Jet aircraft.

Japan started designing their twin engined jet under the auspices of Captain Tokiyasa Tanegashima and this was initially a Japanese only project. Later Commander Eiicha Iwaya arrived from Germany in a submarine with some technical information on the 262 and this was incorporated into the work that was underway.

The Japanese didn't have (as far as I am aware) examples of the Me262 or full designs/plans to go from. As a result the differences between the planes were quite significant and also the performance.

 

[Hornet_Driver]

If you get a chance to go to Japan, go to Kizarazu. They have some info on the Imperial Japanese jet aircraft from that era, since Kizarazu was the site that the Kikka made its maiden flight. It is there that you can find info on it, as well as info on other aircraft from that time.

 

[Glider]

I am afraid that should I go to Japan I can promise my wife wouldn't let me go anywhere near an aircraft until at least some of the normal highspots are seen first.

The article I have is written by Lt Cdr Susumu Takaoka the test pilot for the first flight. Its interesting reading, in particular the warnings he was given before the flight.
a) Delay in engine response after moving the throttle (normal in a jet)
b) Tendancy of the engine to flame out at less than 6000 rev (which meant he had to land 20mph faster than it was designed to)
c) Heavy fuel consumption ( not unusual in an early jet)
d) Inadaquate landing gear brakes (Scary when you realise that the landing gear was from a Zero and they were barely adaquate then, plus match it to the additional landing speed in (b))
e) The RATO gear had been angled by mistake and might cause a nose down attitude on take off (now thats scary)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I don't know about the Japanese version of the Me163 but I do have some information on the design of their Jet aircraft.

Japan started designing their twin engined jet under the auspices of Captain Tokiyasa Tanegashima and this was initially a Japanese only project. Later Commander Eiicha Iwaya arrived from Germany in a submarine with some technical information on the 262 and this was incorporated into the work that was underway.

The Japanese didn't have (as far as I am aware) examples of the Me262 or full designs/plans to go from. As a result the differences between the planes were quite significant and also the performance.

That is correct. I am not sure about the Japanese Comet but the 262 was a Japanese design with help from the Germans but they did not have an example of it.

 

[Hornet_Driver]

I am afraid that should I go to Japan I can promise my wife wouldn't let me go anywhere near an aircraft until at least some of the normal highspots are seen first.

The article I have is written by Lt Cdr Susumu Takaoka the test pilot for the first flight. Its interesting reading, in particular the warnings he was given before the flight.
a) Delay in engine response after moving the throttle (normal in a jet)
b) Tendancy of the engine to flame out at less than 6000 rev (which meant he had to land 20mph faster than it was designed to)
c) Heavy fuel consumption ( not unusual in an early jet)
d) Inadaquate landing gear brakes (Scary when you realise that the landing gear was from a Zero and they were barely adaquate then, plus match it to the additional landing speed in (b))
e) The RATO gear had been angled by mistake and might cause a nose down attitude on take off (now thats scary)

All pretty typical stuff during the early days of jet powered flight, but we all had to start somewhere. I'm just totally amazed by those guys who were on the outer ragged edge of the envelope back in the day, and it's to guys like LCDR Takaoka and others that we have things like NATOPS and pocket checklists/EPs/emergency question of the day. All written in blood by someone before me, God bless them all.

On a lighter note, warning D is a hoot! On the ground, I find myself having to explain to guys that whenever one increases the power output of any moving object, in this case, turbo/supercharging, the braking capacity must also be increased in proportion to the power increase.

 

[Hornet_Driver]

That is correct. I am not sure about the Japanese Comet but the 262 was a Japanese design with help from the Germans but they did not have an example of it.

Whether they had one or not, just the fact that the Japanese did produce a jet similar to the -262 was an accomplishment. This is something I could have asked Saburo Sakai. He was a guest of ours during one of our "dining in" dinners when I was a member of VFA-192 back in 1997. If you don't know who he is, check him out. Unfortunately, he passed away in 2000. Besides being a stick with natural ability, he was a warrior who had compassion.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That I agree with.

 

[HealzDevo]

Interestingly I knew of the Kikka as the Japanese version of the Me-262 was called, but I did not know of a Japanese version of the Me-163 Comet. Anyone know whether it had a service name and number in Japan?

 

[otftch]

The japanese tested a few other German aircraft before and durring WW II.

He-100D-0 AXHe1 three tested
He-118 V4 DXHe1 one tested
He 72 KXHe1 one tested
He 112 A7He1 twelve actually used
Bu-131 KXBu1 twenty one aircraft which
were developed into the K9W Kyushu
Do-N type 87 unknown number

The Japanese version of the Comet was J8M Shushi (swinging Sword)

 

[Hornet_Driver]

I haven't been able to confirm it, but I read that the Japanese Imperial Army received two FW-190 for testing.

 

[otftch]

I know for sure of one.They used it to develop the Ki-100 a radial engine version of the Ki-61 Tony.The 190 was never used operationally.My imformation also shows an Me 109 and a 210 or 410 for test purposes only.They also had a bunch of US aircraft
Ed

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Interestingly I knew of the Kikka as the Japanese version of the Me-262 was called, but I did not know of a Japanese version of the Me-163 Comet. Anyone know whether it had a service name and number in Japan?

Mitsubishi J8 M Shusui

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I know for sure of one.They used it to develop the Ki-100 a radial engine version of the Ki-61 Tony.The 190 was never used operationally.My imformation also shows an Me 109 and a 210 or 410 for test purposes only.They also had a bunch of US aircraft
Ed

Japan had 2 Bf 109E-3's, one Bf 109E-7 and one Bf 109G

They also test the following aircraft from the Luftwaffe:


Arado Ar 196
Bücker Bü 131B Jungmann
Dornier Do 15 Wal
Heinkel He 70 Blitz
Heinkel He 118
Heinkel He 50A
Heinkel He 112B V12 / B-1
Heinkel He 100D
Heinkel He 116A
Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-3
Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-5
Junkers F.6
Junkers F.13
Junkers Ju 86Z-2
Junkers Ju 87A-1
Junkers Ju 160
Messerschmitt Bf 108
Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3
Messershcmitt Bf 109E-7
Messerschmitt Bf 109G-?
Messerschmitt Me 210A-2

 

[Njaco]

I was curious if there was cooperation between Japan and Germany for the "Oka" and Bachem "Natter" suicide flying bombs. Both seem to have been developed about the same time.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I was curious if there was cooperation between Japan and Germany for the "Oka" and Bachem "Natter" suicide flying bombs. Both seem to have been developed about the same time.

The Ohka was a home grown Japanese project...

"Conceived by Ensign Mitsuo Ohta of the 405th Kokutai, and aided by students of the Aeronautical Research Institute at the University of Tokyo, Ohta submitted his plans to the Yokisuka research facility. The Imperial Japanese Navy decided the idea had merit and Yokosuka engineers of the First Naval Air Technical Bureau (Kugisho) created formal blueprints for what was to be the MXY7. The only variant which saw service was the Model 11, and was powered by three Type 4 Mark 1 Model 20 rockets. 150 were built at Yokosuka, and another 600 were built at the Kasumigaura Naval Air Arsenal."

 

[Hornet_Driver]

The Ohka was a home grown Japanese project...

"Conceived by Ensign Mitsuo Ohta of the 405th Kokutai, and aided by students of the Aeronautical Research Institute at the University of Tokyo, Ohta submitted his plans to the Yokisuka research facility. The Imperial Japanese Navy decided the idea had merit and Yokosuka engineers of the First Naval Air Technical Bureau (Kugisho) created formal blueprints for what was to be the MXY7. The only variant which saw service was the Model 11, and was powered by three Type 4 Mark 1 Model 20 rockets. 150 were built at Yokosuka, and another 600 were built at the Kasumigaura Naval Air Arsenal."

I actually saw a copy of one in Sasebo, Japan when I was a kid. I used to walk by this fenced in area that was part of the MSDF section of Fleet Activities, Sasebo (1970-73). Anyway, it looked like an elongated bomb with stubby wings, a little cockpit and really looked unairworthy. I had no idea what it was at the time until I was much older and saw a "Baka" bomb in a book of strange aircraft. "Ohka"... take out the "k" and spell it in reverse and you get "Aho", which is Japanese slang from Kansai area for "fool".

 

[Hornet_Driver]

Japan had 2 Bf 109E-3's, one Bf 109E-7 and one Bf 109G

They also test the following aircraft from the Luftwaffe:


Arado Ar 196
Bücker Bü 131B Jungmann
Dornier Do 15 Wal
Heinkel He 70 Blitz
Heinkel He 118
Heinkel He 50A
Heinkel He 112B V12 / B-1
Heinkel He 100D
Heinkel He 116A
Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-3
Focke-Wulf Fw 190A-5
Junkers F.6
Junkers F.13
Junkers Ju 86Z-2
Junkers Ju 87A-1
Junkers Ju 160
Messerschmitt Bf 108
Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3
Messershcmitt Bf 109E-7
Messerschmitt Bf 109G-?
Messerschmitt Me 210A-2

Wow! Much appreciated for the 411.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I actually saw a copy of one in Sasebo, Japan when I was a kid. I used to walk by this fenced in area that was part of the MSDF section of Fleet Activities, Sasebo (1970-73). Anyway, it looked like an elongated bomb with stubby wings, a little cockpit and really looked unairworthy. I had no idea what it was at the time until I was much older and saw a "Baka" bomb in a book of strange aircraft. "Ohka"... take out the "k" and spell it in reverse and you get "Aho", which is Japanese slang from Kansai area for "fool".

Interesting...

I seen one in a museum as well, I think Wright Pat. I built a model of one as a kid - had a 30" wingspan and was powered by a rocket engine. It flew pretty well until a put a "c" engine in the thing and its wings got ripped off.

 

[Hornet_Driver]

Interesting...

I seen one in a museum as well, I think Wright Pat. I built a model of one as a kid - had a 30" wingspan and was powered by a rocket engine. It flew pretty well until a put a "c" engine in the thing and its wings got ripped off.

Back in the day as a kid in Japan, WW2 had only ended 25 years ago, and Sasebo, which was the second most important Japanese Imperial Navy installation, was still filled with some relics of that conflict, but not quite in the open. I really don't know what that Ohka thing served as in 1970. I'm sure it wasn't armed. Maybe it was a reminder to the MSDF of all of the idiotic things (the Ohka was not a thing of genius; one way missions aren't heroic when you don't have a choice) that had occurred less than a quarter century ago ("how can you know where you are going unless you know where you came from?" kinda thought going here). In the housing area where I lived, the hill was littered with observation posts, tunnels and all kinds of reminders of a time in the not so distant past.