Donivanp
Captain
Doing some really good work there Mat. I do like it.
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Maty, IMHO one wouldn't see a big difference in the colours on the UNDERSIDE of the a/c. I'm thinking of the real planes used in the Tokyo raid - they were not brand new, but not extremely used as well. These were not a/c from the Pacific or even from the MTO (North Africa), put under harsh conditions for weeks and months before the raid. A slight difference in the colours (just to show the different materials) is probably much more effective. Again IMHO.
For that matter I've learned a modelling trick many years ago. One uses "FLAT BASE" of Tamiya (or other manufacturers) over the already painted area with the original colour (NG). Mix the FB with Future (or even thinner) differently to achieve lighter or stronger effect. Yes, the area becomes lighter. Subtly lighter though.
Cheers!
- Thread starter
- #43
Thank you!
I see, that makes sense. I suppose there is no reason for the undersides of the control surfaces to look faded. I don't have Future or any Thinner myself, would water work? If not I might just paint it all unaltered neutral grey and leave the fading for the topsides. I'm currently thinking of using Vallejo or Humbrol's US Olive Drab for the overall finish with Vallejo Dark Olive Brown (which seems a good match for Dark OD 41) for the visible spots where the War Games markings were overpainted. For lighter OD I'll mix the Olive Drab with a bit of white.
If you have the flat base (X-21 from Tamiya or a similar one from a different manufacturer) you can mix it with any clear varnish (clear cote) and dilute it with distilled water + alcohol (e.g. Isopropyl 99% or 91%; 1 part alcochol, 3 parts water or sim.) Make firstly a very thin mixture with the flat base and try it. You don't need to put too much flat base - it becomes very rough. Just go 2-3 times over the area (when waiting the previous layer to dry completely). You can use the same "trick", if it works, for the OD (top) areas as well. Make a small test (on the inside of the model or on a test plastic) and if it works for you, use it further. I'm using an airbrush and the layers are very thin. With a brush you need some patience. For overpainted markings etc. try using darker colour (much easier to mix, than lighter tones). Just a hint darker.
I think the "flat base trick" is an easy one especially for smaller models. But if you don't like it or think it's too labor intensive or else, you can always proceed with your original way of doing the things.
Cheers!
Crimea_River
Marshal
Looking good Matt.
Vic Balshaw
Major General
Oh gosh, while I sleep you guys play. Lots been done and lots to take in, but its looking good Matt. 
- Thread starter
- #47
Thanks, guys!
I appreciate the explanation! Unfortunately I don't have any flat bases, all I've got is a few brushes and acrylic paints straight out of the bottle or occasionally mixed with a few drops of water. I've washed off the paint from the control surfaces using Alcohol, I think my best bet for the undersides would either be to just apply regular neutral grey or mix in a very small amount of white. In any case, I'll do that after I've attached the parts.
Unrelated, but I've noticed a small alignment problem with my build. While I've managed to get the fuselage glued in nearly gapless, the two halves are ever so slightly misaligned, which resulted in the wing spars being twisted in relation to each other and the mount for the stabilizer being crooked. I don't think there's a way I can correct this, even if I pried the model apart I'd have to also completely dismantle the interior, (which I suspect that is the root of the alignment issues as I couldn't get the parts quite perpendicular). I'm thinking I might look into getting one of those modeling jigs/bases to avoid this in the future. I considered building one out of Lego but I'd have to find my stash first and hope they're not dusty. I'm also sick at the moment so digging around in old boxes would probably be unwise anyway. I've sanded down the area for the horizontal stabilizer as best I can (it was also one of only two areas of the kit that had flash on them) and will try to find something around the house to level the aircraft with so that those aren't slanted.
I'm not sure the photos show it, but if you look at the leading edge and the forward spar you can see on one side the leading edge is touching the contour of the wing on the fuselage and on the other side there's a slight distance. I sanded these perfectly so that there would be no gaps between the wing and fuselage, but that's about all I can do. I don't think the twist will be noticeable on the finished model, and if it does then well I suppose it matches my Marauder's droopy wings.
I appreciate the explanation! Unfortunately I don't have any flat bases, all I've got is a few brushes and acrylic paints straight out of the bottle or occasionally mixed with a few drops of water. I've washed off the paint from the control surfaces using Alcohol, I think my best bet for the undersides would either be to just apply regular neutral grey or mix in a very small amount of white. In any case, I'll do that after I've attached the parts.
Unrelated, but I've noticed a small alignment problem with my build. While I've managed to get the fuselage glued in nearly gapless, the two halves are ever so slightly misaligned, which resulted in the wing spars being twisted in relation to each other and the mount for the stabilizer being crooked. I don't think there's a way I can correct this, even if I pried the model apart I'd have to also completely dismantle the interior, (which I suspect that is the root of the alignment issues as I couldn't get the parts quite perpendicular). I'm thinking I might look into getting one of those modeling jigs/bases to avoid this in the future. I considered building one out of Lego but I'd have to find my stash first and hope they're not dusty. I'm also sick at the moment so digging around in old boxes would probably be unwise anyway. I've sanded down the area for the horizontal stabilizer as best I can (it was also one of only two areas of the kit that had flash on them) and will try to find something around the house to level the aircraft with so that those aren't slanted.
I'm not sure the photos show it, but if you look at the leading edge and the forward spar you can see on one side the leading edge is touching the contour of the wing on the fuselage and on the other side there's a slight distance. I sanded these perfectly so that there would be no gaps between the wing and fuselage, but that's about all I can do. I don't think the twist will be noticeable on the finished model, and if it does then well I suppose it matches my Marauder's droopy wings.
Vic Balshaw
Major General
I can see that one wing seems to fit nice and snug and a small gap on the other. Have you checked to see if wither the wing join edge or the fuselage housing is nice and clean, the slightest mould defect bump or scrap of excess plastic could cause this problem.
Nicely done so far!
Crimea_River
Marshal
Looking good Matt. The wing gap seems minor to me but maybe I'm missing something.
- Thread starter
- #52
Thanks again, lads.
It's not really a gap, the bottom half of the wing can attach without any issues or gaps. It's moreso the front and rear spars being ever so slightly twisted in relation to each other. I sanded the area completely beforehand, but unfortunately there is nothing I can do to rectify it. The wings have been attached with cement and I'm not confident in the spars' ability to not twist or break if I try to pry them off, and even if I did they are too frail for me to sand the twist away. I did not notice the issue when I was test-fitting earlier sadly.I can see that one wing seems to fit nice and snug and a small gap on the other. Have you checked to see if wither the wing join edge or the fuselage housing is nice and clean, the slightest mould defect bump or scrap of excess plastic could cause this problem.
- Thread starter
- #53
Wanted to get your thoughts on this, are the leading edges of the wing flaps Zinc Chromate or NMF? The real life painting instructions only differentiate between exterior and interior parts, but I'm not sure what these are considered since they are fully hidden when the flaps are retracted. I don't know if these are painted before or after being fitted to the aircraft. If it's done afterwards, then I'd wager it's a simple case of the OD being applied while the flaps were retracted, but that doesn't necessarily mean either NMF or Zinc Chromate.
The airplanes manufactured in the Inglewood Factory (California) were not primed (B-25B incl.). The flaps of those were painted before the final assembly and were covered completely top and bottom.
After the complete painting of the planes in the so called "Sunshine Line" (outside the factory) flaps and top surfaces became the same:
This can be seen with the D-models in Kansas City, being primed but the flaps were already painted before the assembly.
I'm not sure if the B-model was assembled in the very same way but I guess so.
The Tokyo raiders were not exactly the same to the last detail.
Check the launch here. At 1:35, 5:54, 6:17 etc. one can clearly see the flaps down and no NM area - the flaps' top areas are all painted.
At 2:19 there is an a/c with NM areas on the top of the flaps (IMHO this is the same a/c as on your photo). I believe this is s/n 40-2278, crew # 12 (could be 40-2270, crew #3 though) and I guess it is not the Whirling Dervish.
On this photo of one of the "Raiders" (s/n 40-2242) the lighter area is not at the flap top end but at the edge of the wing - it's an optical illusion:
In case you want to do it with such visible difference, it should be NM.
Cheers!
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- Thread starter
- #56
Very informative! And those photos already help one inaccuracy on my painting, I had just painted the wing frame closest to the inboard edge of the outboard flap in Zinc Chromate, not Neutral Grey as per the second photo. Would this be the case for the flap, aileron, elevator and rudder sides and all the aft spars and hinges for the stabilizer and fins as well? I see people paint them Zinc Chromate very frequently, but then I also see the entire interiors incorrectly painted in that color.
Rewatching the launch footage I think I see the NMF flap leading edges on the 2nd and 3rd A/C shown, but not the first. The video seems to then show the same 3 clips again with differing quality, so I think we only ever see those same three from the observation areas. I see the same serial number as you do for the 3rd one, 40-2278. Wikipedia had identified the aircraft in the photo I sent as 40-2344, though I don't think that's the serial visible in the photo and Wikipedia can often get these details wrong. I don't know if the launch footage is in order, since it seems to be several clips. I think based on what I'm seeing it can be quite hit or miss whether they should be NMF or not, but I trust your judgement on it being NMF and not zinc chromate. I think I'll make the decision based on how I feel when painting them.
There's two other parts I'm not 100% sure on how to paint. One of them is visible in what I believe is the only actual photo of 40-2303 (though it is possible that it's a different aircraft, the reason I think is 40-2303 is because it's parked right behind 40-2242 and even if moved it would make sense to move the aircraft the smallest distance possible). The detail in question is part of the cockpit frame, circled in red below:
I believe that to also be NMF, though again I have no clue why it would be a different color. The final part I'm unsure of how to paint are the cowl rings themselves. Like all the other participating aircraft, 40-2303 had cowl rings matching its squadron assignment, which were then overpainted for camouflage purposes for the raid. I am unsure whether the rings were painted fully olive drab, or if neutral grey was applied to the undersides, continuing the cowlings' markings. No photos of the raiders seem to show this area very well due to shadow and it's highly possible that this was not consistent between aircraft.
Good work and good info...!
- Thread starter
- #58
Small update:
Started painting the wing but then realized both Humbrol 155 Matt Olive Drab (left) and Vallejo 70.889 US Olive Drab (middle) look a lot more like Interior Green than OD. Guess I'll stick with Vallejo 70.889 Olive Brown, which I used on the B-26's elevators and rudder. Might lighten it up a bit to look more faded, but it's at least closer to the real color. Disregard the paint on the right, that's black.
And here's a photo of the areas I painted Zinc Chromate and am now unsure of the proper color for:
Started painting the wing but then realized both Humbrol 155 Matt Olive Drab (left) and Vallejo 70.889 US Olive Drab (middle) look a lot more like Interior Green than OD. Guess I'll stick with Vallejo 70.889 Olive Brown, which I used on the B-26's elevators and rudder. Might lighten it up a bit to look more faded, but it's at least closer to the real color. Disregard the paint on the right, that's black.
And here's a photo of the areas I painted Zinc Chromate and am now unsure of the proper color for:
Crimea_River
Marshal
Lots of leeway on the OD as it took on a number of hues when fading IIRC.
