10 Allied planes that sealed Nazi Germany's fate

drgondog said:

Curious - why limit discussion regarding Strategic success to just Ploesti? The entire campaign against petro-chemical industry killed German fuel reserves...

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really stupid reason for me actually. I'm abroad and only have an ipad with me an I hate typing on those things, thus I skipped most of my answer But you're absolutely right of course.

Secondary benefits (unquestioned) were the re-allocation of AAA from German army to LW plus forcing Germany to allocate very high percentage of industrial resources (plant, labor, critical metals) toward fighter production to attempt to stop daylight bombing.

Had Daylight bombing and associated escort fighters not been considered threatening to German war machine they would have ignored it to the extent that they would a.) keep their resources mostly in the East, and b.) maintained aircraft production levels per 1942/early 1943.

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Well, not necessarily as they were threatening the population weren't they? The German army could not ignore that despite their government's barbarism. Not sure how great an impact the relocation of AAA had on winning the war. But I'm playing the devil's advocate here as I don't really have an opinion on this discussion.

Having said that, let me state that the P51 was a great plane, filling it's intended role admirably during the were being it crucial or not. Hopefully our fighting parties can now stop their booring fight about how crucial the P51 was, as it is a subjective matter, based on intepretation. And you can keep on fighting over this until some-one gets banned.

On Topic: My statement on the question at hand is that I believe the ME262 was a great contributor to the Allied vicory by being way too late to have any impact. also the BF109 was great for not being able to fight too long over England during the BOB, the FW190 for not being there during the BOB. The Heinkel 111 for not being a heavy 4 engined bomber. The BF110 for only flying defensive circles during the BOB. On all these points, these aircraft were crucial for the Allied victory

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Sorry there is no logic as you say in that. The Germans are not fanatical suicidal people that would need the whole country nuked to make them surrender.

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If Germany continued to resist, the logic of nuke the whole country was to desmoralize the people and the government to a point where they would see that there was no country left to try sustain, and hence surrender. I just wrote about the bomb, because someone mentioned that without the Mustang, D-Day might not have occured in '44 and Germany and the USSR could have signed peace.

Anyway, this thread is way off-topic, and I will start to "desmobilize".

And one nuke over Hamburg would no do that ? Seriously...

The Germans had the means to deliver Tabun - not 100% but certainly enough to cause major casualties. The V-1, very low flying Me 410s at night, etc, etc. We had the means - just didn't have the weapon.

There's that jet thing again. How could the jets available to the allies in 1945 have represented any counter to German jets over occupied Europe? It was years before a jet fighter with the range of a P 51 was built.

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Europe started less than 25 miles from the English coast. You don't need the range of the P-51 to engage the Luftwaffe over Europe.

Do you believe that the European war would have ended in April 1945 had the USAAF not had the P-51?

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I don't think the date would have changed significantly.

Do you believe that Overlord would have gone ahead in June 1944 had the USAAF not had the P-51?

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Undoubtedly. Don't forget, planning for the invasion began long before the P-51B showed up. (surely no one is suggesting the Allison engined P-51s were "crucial"?)

Look at the invasion of Sicily as an example. The allies didn't need air superiority over Northern Italy, they simply attacked Luftwaffe forces in Sicily, bombed their airfields and shot down their aircraft. They achieved air superiority and the Luftwaffe had very little success combating the invasion.

The allies achieved air superiority over France in 1943. Without the P-51 the allies would still have had an all but impregnable air umbrella over the invasion fleet in June 1944.

I agree that 1000 A4's with a Tabun warhead had not the same effect as a A-Bomb, but it's also not that difficult to built a fuze which will explode 50m over the ground, many constructed shells had simiular fuzes.

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Shells had time fuses. The V-2 flight path was not accurate enough to use a time fuse. It needed a radar fuse that Germany did not have.

RV Jones, who was head of the British scientific team assessing German weapons during the war said he wasn't particularly concerned about "unknown" German weapons. Any programme small enough to have escaped his notice was too small to have a decisive effect.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

And one nuke over Hamburg would no do that ? Seriously...

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I don't think so. The Nazi state wanted to survive. Even when the Nazis were fighting for Berlin, there was a little hope that the Soviets and Anglo-Americans would have a serious disagreement, and the Nazis would find find some exit. If the Soviets signed peace with Germany because D-Day not occured in 1944, the Nazis would try at the maximum to survive. This why I think that Germany would have to enter in chaos in order to surrender. And I agree with you that the German people was more easy to revolt against the government than Japan was, hence other good reason for the nuclear bombing.

drgondog that suggested that the USSR and Germany might have signed peace, but I don't think so. Stalin and his gang didn't give a f*** that Western people were dying (and vice versa). If sign peace with Germany was a good idea to Stalin, he would do it historically.

Shells had time fuses. The V-2 flight path was not accurate enough to use a time fuse. It needed a radar fuse that Germany did not have.

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You information is quiet incorrect the german had radar operated fuses.

An overview of the German proximity fuse (not completely) and how they work:

BATH, acoustically designed by Graf Zeppelin Institute

ELKU (electro-acoustic), developed in connection with PABLITZ

FUCHS radar operated, developed by AEG in Berlin, scheduled for Hs-117, Hs-298 and other missiles

Isegrimm, electromagnetic, developed by Orlich Institute, Gdansk.

COCKATOO, activ radar operated and developed by Danubian GmbH, Vienna. about 3,000 were for the Hs-293 produced. Uses the Doppler effect.

CRANE, acoustically brackish career of Ruhrstahl AG. Was partly intended for mass production.

BALL LIGHTNING, radar operated actively Patentverwertungs society, Salzburg.
Designed for surface to air missiles (Rheintochter). Uses Doppler effect. Small series.

Cowbell, passive electro static (Glimmröhrenzündung) of Rhine metal-Borsig. Provided for rockets. only prototypes

KUHGLÖCKCHEN, smaller version of the cowbell for FLAK 88-128mm, mass production scheduled to start in March 1945, not because of the war conducted.

LOTTE infrared canceled for an unknown steering rate development.

MARABU, radar operated actively under development by Siemens-Halske behalf of Rheinmetall AG.
Designed for Hs-117, Hs-298, Rhinemaiden and waterfall surface to air missiles. Small series production for demonstration purposes.

MARTEN radar operated from Orlich Institute, Gdansk. Parallel development to Isegrimm.

MEISE, acoustic Neumann Borm, Berlin.

PABLITZ, infrared electric-acoustic Institute, Namslau, later keel.
A.K.A. "ELKU". Designed for Hs-117 and waterfall surface to air missiles. Small series for testing.

Pinscher, radar operated active by Orlich Institute, Gdansk. 5 prototypes.

PISTOL, photo-electric, developed in conjunction with AEG WATER MOUSE.

ROULETTE infrared, of Brick Man, Gera.

TUNING FORK, acoustic from the Graf Zeppelin Institute. Developed for parachute delayed bombs dropped on bomber streams. Tested, aborted development.

FUNNEL radio controlled, from Blaupunkt. Series production, from feb. 1945 in the field testing.

WATER MOUSE, photo-electric, designed to C2W10 waterfall ground-air guided missile.

Wiesel, activ radar operated from Orlich Institute, Gdansk.

IGNITOR-19, developed for SC 250kg bombs from Rheinmetall-Borsig. Begun in 1937, canceled the 1943rd Production continued until 1944.

CODE UNKNOWN, a passive proximity fuse for the R4M unguided air-to-air missiles (Me-262, Fw-190, Me-410).

And I agree with you that the German people was more easy to revolt against the government than Japan was, hence other good reason for the nuclear bombing.

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Your sentence isn't beatable from cynical and inhumanity because you are writing the word for hundred of thousands civil casualty with a terror weapon, which has not a single meaning to military operations, it is simply to terror the civil people and murder them to thousands.

Not trying to be a stick in the mud, but what have the last several pages got to do with "Top 10 Planes That Sealed Nazi Germany's Fate?" Maybe they deserve their own thread (anybody want to start it?), but they are sort of irrelevant to this one.

No jet produced in WWII had more than a tiny impact on the fight. Me 262's are creditied with 562 bombers against 100 losses. Those total losses amount to about five percent of a single 1,000 bomber raid. We flew a LOT of those. Over the course of the 5 1/2 year war, that is relatively nothing compared with the earlier piston generation's contributions. Sure, the Me 262 had an impact post-war on fighter and bomber design, but very little impact in WWII itself. Anyone who thinks the P-51 didn't affect the outcome in Germany has not studied the war very much ... change references to one that is based in fact.

There are a few immortals in WWII aviation. The Spitfire is in there along with the Lancaster, the B-17, the P-47, the Bf 109, the Fw 190, the He 111, and, yes, the P-51. Others populate the list, too, but the P-51 deserves it's place no less than any of the others. Just to stave off the inevitable, yeah, the Hurricane should be in there, too, along with the Halifax, the A6M Zero, the P-38, and some others.

Everyone's favorite can't be an "Immortal," but many already are.

My thoughts exactly Greg

GregP said:

Not trying to be a stick in the mud, but what have the last several pages got to do with "Top 10 Planes That Sealed Nazi Germany's Fate?" Maybe they deserve their own thread (anybody want to start it?), but they are sort of irrelevant to this one.

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That is what I have been saying for several pages.

My thoughts on the top 10 "combat aircraft....not havig read the discussion to this point I might add

1. Illushin Il-2 IL-10 Sturmovik
2. Hawker Typhoon
3. Blackburn Swordfish
4 SBD
5. Consolidated PBY
6. PB4Y Privateer
7. B-24
8 P-51B onwards
9 Supermarine Spitfire
10 De Havilland Mosquito


Each are different, and easch, in their own way contributed significantly to the Allied victory

Okay, in a selfless attempt to get things back on track, I will now question the credentials of another frequent nominee, the Mosquito (thereby inevitably releasing another storm of vitriol)
Succesfiul as it was in such a range of roles, was anything the Mossie did really vital to the Allies? it was the Allies best night fighter/intruder for most of its existence, but were these roles vital? Other, admitedly lesser alternatives existed such as the Havoc and Beaufighter. The Mossie was a superlative high speed pinpoint bomber, but did it cause critical damage to the Germans?
The Mossie was certainly one of the best aircraft of the war, but was in the top 10 most important?
NBC - I'm being devil's advocate here - please don't firebomb my house

I dont believe the SBD and Privateer were used against the Germans.

CobberKane said:

Okay, in a selfless attempt to get things back on track, I will now question the credentials of another frequent nominee, the Mosquito (thereby inevitably releasing another storm of vitriol)
Succesfiul as it was in such a range of roles, was anything the Mossie did really vital to the Allies? it was the Allies best night fighter/intruder for most of its existence, but were these roles vital? Other, admitedly lesser alternatives existed such as the Havoc and Beaufighter. The Mossie was a superlative high speed pinpoint bomber, but did it cause critical damage to the Germans?
The Mossie was certainly one of the best aircraft of the war, but was in the top 10 most important?
NBC - I'm being devil's advocate here - please don't firebomb my house

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the mosquito was used in Pathfinder squadrons, arriving before the big guys to "mark" the target and thus making the whole bombing much more accurate.

Just because a certain type doesnt make the top 10, doesnt mean it wasnt important.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I dont believe the SBD and Privateer were used against the Germans.

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Oops, thats what happens when I dont read the forum topic correctly

To avoid further embarrassment I would modify my list as follows

1. Illushin Il-2 IL-10 Sturmovik
2. Hawker Typhoon
3. Blackburn Swordfish
4. Consolidated PBY
5. Short Sunderland
6. B-24
7 P-51B onwards
8 Supermarine Spitfire
9 De Havilland Mosquito
10 Lancaster

CobberKane said:

Okay, in a selfless attempt to get things back on track, I will now question the credentials of another frequent nominee, the Mosquito (thereby inevitably releasing another storm of vitriol)
Succesfiul as it was in such a range of roles, was anything the Mossie did really vital to the Allies? it was the Allies best night fighter/intruder for most of its existence, but were these roles vital? Other, admitedly lesser alternatives existed such as the Havoc and Beaufighter. The Mossie was a superlative high speed pinpoint bomber, but did it cause critical damage to the Germans?
The Mossie was certainly one of the best aircraft of the war, but was in the top 10 most important?
NBC - I'm being devil's advocate here - please don't firebomb my house

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The Mosquito:
1) Became the best scoring Allied night fighter of the war, in three different theatres
2) Took more PR photos than any RAF type (Spitfire few more sorties, bit didn't have as many cameras)
3) Dropped more bomb tonnage in RAF service than the Whitley, Hampden, Boston, Blenheim and Manchester, combined. Only the Stirling, Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster dropped more tonnage.
4) Served in every RAF theatre of war
5) Intercepted nearly 500 V1 flying bombs at night and was as up to five times more efficient in bombing V1 sights than other bomber types
6) Played a vital role in pathfinding, spoofing, jamming and laying false raid tracks to protect the bomber stream
7) Generally hit targets with at range iwth speed and precision unavailable to any other type.

Jabberwocky said:

The Mosquito:
1) Became the best scoring Allied night fighter of the war, in three different theatres
2) Took more PR photos than any RAF type (Spitfire few more sorties, bit didn't have as many cameras)
3) Dropped more bomb tonnage in RAF service than the Whitley, Hampden, Boston, Blenheim and Manchester, combined. Only the Stirling, Wellington, Halifax and Lancaster dropped more tonnage.
4) Served in every RAF theatre of war
5) Intercepted nearly 500 V1 flying bombs at night and was as up to five times more efficient in bombing V1 sights than other bomber types
6) Played a vital role in pathfinding, spoofing, jamming and laying false raid tracks to protect the bomber stream
7) Generally hit targets with at range iwth speed and precision unavailable to any other type.

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What he said, with the caveat that it was about 630 V-1s.

For me the primus inter pares was the Mossie's carriage of Oboe, which in early- to mid-43 allowed serious blows to be landed against the Ruhr and the industries therein.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I dont believe the SBD and Privateer were used against the Germans.

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The SBD was not used by the task forces in Africa and south France?