stug3
Staff Sergeant
Sounds like a Mosquito.
1940: the best bomber in service?
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Sounds like a Mosquito.
wuzak
Captain
But it isn't directly comparable between two aircraft.
A Whitley, for example, could haul the same bomb load as the B-17C a similar distance and use less fuel. So the "useful load" as defined here is less, but the bomb load it could deliver to the same point is the same.
Also, doesn't matter how much fuel you take out of a B-17C, the maximum bomb load was still on 4800lb - due to space considerations and the type of bomb available at the time.
The point of use of fuel is right, but is a major trouble only when you compare a 4 engine planes with a 2 engine.
Yes 17C max load is 4800 (8x600) but is one of larger load in bomb bay of this time bombers, the Whitley (&Hampden) had 4000, Wellington 4500, He 111 4400, B-18 4400, only the PZL.37 had 5200 (and i've doubt on accuracy of this data)
Yes 17C max load is 4800 (8x600) but is one of larger load in bomb bay of this time bombers, the Whitley (&Hampden) had 4000, Wellington 4500, He 111 4400, B-18 4400, only the PZL.37 had 5200 (and i've doubt on accuracy of this data)
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
The Whitley could carry 7,000lb of bombs 660km. Actually acheivable had France not fallen.
introduced in 1937 and went through the war, a true testament to the bomber itself and how amazing she was Do 17 was completely obsolete by the start of war, like the Blenheim.. very small bomb load of 1 ton, and even that to a very very limited range. And it still needed two engines..
Don't get me wrong it was likable and well conceived plane in the 1930s, but by 1940 it was simply too old. Later Dorniers like the 217 had only superficial resemblance.
Don't get me wrong it was likable and well conceived plane in the 1930s, but by 1940 it was simply too old. Later Dorniers like the 217 had only superficial resemblance.
Glider
Captain
Sorry to be late to this thread. Its a personal view but if you are talking 1940 then the choice is between the Ju88 and Maryland in one weight catagory and the Wellington in the medium with the He111 running close behind.
A lot of the fighters in 1940 would find it difficult to catch the Ju88 and Maryland and they were pretty robust machines. The Wellington and the he111 were very close in paper performance but the Wellington with its powered turrets had a better defence and its bomb bay was more flexible giving it the edge in my mind.
The B17 wasn't combat ready in 1940. On paper it looks realistic but when the RAF tried to use them in 1941 the list of problems fundamental to safe let alone effective deployment was significant.
Just a view
A lot of the fighters in 1940 would find it difficult to catch the Ju88 and Maryland and they were pretty robust machines. The Wellington and the he111 were very close in paper performance but the Wellington with its powered turrets had a better defence and its bomb bay was more flexible giving it the edge in my mind.
The B17 wasn't combat ready in 1940. On paper it looks realistic but when the RAF tried to use them in 1941 the list of problems fundamental to safe let alone effective deployment was significant.
Just a view
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drgondog
Major
One of the problems was the RAF attacked and bombed from 30,000 feet, had turbo problems bomb aiming problems and IIRC didn't have self sealing tanks.
Notably they didn't use any other bomber the same way.
'Combat ready' is a subjective term. The Fort was ready for combat and would see steady improvement as every bomber and fighter ever introduced.
Notably they didn't use any other bomber the same way.
'Combat ready' is a subjective term. The Fort was ready for combat and would see steady improvement as every bomber and fighter ever introduced.
wuzak
Captain
But the Fort was designed to operate at 30,000ft, hence the turbos.
The RAF probably didn't have anything else designed for, or capable of, bombing at 30,000ft at the time.
The RAF probably didn't have anything else designed for, or capable of, bombing at 30,000ft at the time.
IMHO it was the He 111. The plane had nice handling qualities, good range. More importantly, it was very well armored with self sealing tanks (something that early Wellingtons lacked). Bombing equipment was also state of the art, all of them had Knickebein blind bombing aids, and the Lofte 7 bombsight was also as good as it can get for 1940.. RAF bombers had AFAIK through most of the war only vector sights. Externally the aircraft could carry some very large bombs up to 2500 kg.
The downside was the fairly weak defensive armament, as although there were numerous MGs, they were all single barrel and drum fed.
The Ju 88 was a good alternative, but since the bomb bay was very limited in size, it could not carry as many 250 kgers as the 111, and would limit its usefullness for conventional bombing tasks.
The downside was the fairly weak defensive armament, as although there were numerous MGs, they were all single barrel and drum fed.
The Ju 88 was a good alternative, but since the bomb bay was very limited in size, it could not carry as many 250 kgers as the 111, and would limit its usefullness for conventional bombing tasks.
yulzari
Staff Sergeant
The RAF found with the early Flying Fortresses that at maximum altitude the cold affected various components, the crew suffered in the cold, low air pressure and continuous piped oxygen and the vaunted accuracy still wasn't there even in daylight. As lesser altitude night bomber it carried no more than the British twins so they were taken off after trial sorties.
Essentially as an airframe it was good for 30,000' but as a weapons system it was not.
Essentially as an airframe it was good for 30,000' but as a weapons system it was not.
Hello Ju
I mostly agree, He 111 and Wimpy had surprisingly similar performance. 111 had better bomb-sight for good weather daytime bombing but because BC adapted night bombing very early during WWII Wimpy's vector sight wasn't a drawback. IIRC Wimpys got self-sealing fuel tanks soon after Dec 1939 debacle, but were they as good as German ones, which were excellent, I cannot remember. Wimpy's power operated nose and tail turret were a big plus, even if the tail turret had only twin mg before Mk III. And as Glider wrote Wimpy's bombay was more flexible but of course late 111Hs had the option of external loads. So IMHO it is very difficult to say which was better.
Juha
Juha
drgondog
Major
The deficiencies the RAF experienced performing operations at 30,000 feet doesn't diminish the B-17s capability in 1940.
If you believe this, then contrast the operating capability of the He 111 and Ju 88 in context of range, bomb load and defensive capabilty when they operate at 30,000 feet.... oops they can't get there. Well compare them at 25,000 feet... oops they didn't do that either - that isn't what they were originally designed to do.
Well compare them at 15,000 feet. At least all three may now be compared.
If you believe this, then contrast the operating capability of the He 111 and Ju 88 in context of range, bomb load and defensive capabilty when they operate at 30,000 feet.... oops they can't get there. Well compare them at 25,000 feet... oops they didn't do that either - that isn't what they were originally designed to do.
Well compare them at 15,000 feet. At least all three may now be compared.
parsifal
Colonel
I thought the B-17 hardly ever operated at 30K, even in its later dubtypes. B-17s in 1944 attacked at a median altitude of 26k, maybe +/- 2000ft
Glider
Captain
I will do what I can.
The radius of action for the B17 in RAF hands was 450 miles with 4 x 1,100lb bombs but for some reason only US could be used.
On 4th June 1941 a test mission was flown but there were problems with the Radio, intercom and oxygen. On 6th June 1941 a demo was set up for Churchill, General Royce of the USAAF and various other senior people. At this demo the British wanted to try the B17 in combat but it was the Americans who urged caution saying that it might be premature.
Oil leaks were a continual problem during this period. As for bombing accuracy test range missions averaged 150yard from 10,000 ft. A major dissapointment.
First Mission was flown on 8th July against Wilhelmshaven from 30,000 ft with two aircraft. Astrodome froze at 18,000ft, all guns and mountings froze. Two me109's intercepted but couldn't maintain height and never fired. One aircraft had oil leaks from all four engines which froze on the tailfin one inch thick.
Missions to berlin were planned but never undertaken and due to the fuel that was used in the climb, the payload to berlin would only have been 2,200lb. Missions also had to take into account the weather, two of the first eight (AN534 and AN521) aircraft breaking up in turbulance both losing a wing.
On 6th August two aircraft tried to bomb the Scharnhorst and on one the bomb sight froze.
On 12 August four tried to bomb various targets one abandoned the mission due to turbo problems
On 16th August a b17 was intercepted at 32,000 ft and was destroyed in a crash landing.
On 19th August a mission was abandoned due to the guns freezing and the same happened on the 21st
Bombing accuracy was very dissapointing so much so that on the 21 one bomber took up Mr Voss of the Sperry company as the bomb aimer and the bombs still fell wide of the target. As well as this the aircraft was considered to be very vulnerable to fighter attack as it caught fire easily.
To be fair if it didn't catch fire then it could take a lot of damage, and if the weather was perfect and opposition slight then the accuracy could be exceptional, but these situations over Germany were rare.
To go back to my original point. These are the sort of things that should have been sorted by the USAAF when it was introduced into service. To have these things going wrong 12-18 months later tells me that in 1940 the B17 couldn't be considered an operational aircraft. On paper it might but for the crews that had to fly it, it wasn't
The radius of action for the B17 in RAF hands was 450 miles with 4 x 1,100lb bombs but for some reason only US could be used.
On 4th June 1941 a test mission was flown but there were problems with the Radio, intercom and oxygen. On 6th June 1941 a demo was set up for Churchill, General Royce of the USAAF and various other senior people. At this demo the British wanted to try the B17 in combat but it was the Americans who urged caution saying that it might be premature.
Oil leaks were a continual problem during this period. As for bombing accuracy test range missions averaged 150yard from 10,000 ft. A major dissapointment.
First Mission was flown on 8th July against Wilhelmshaven from 30,000 ft with two aircraft. Astrodome froze at 18,000ft, all guns and mountings froze. Two me109's intercepted but couldn't maintain height and never fired. One aircraft had oil leaks from all four engines which froze on the tailfin one inch thick.
Missions to berlin were planned but never undertaken and due to the fuel that was used in the climb, the payload to berlin would only have been 2,200lb. Missions also had to take into account the weather, two of the first eight (AN534 and AN521) aircraft breaking up in turbulance both losing a wing.
On 6th August two aircraft tried to bomb the Scharnhorst and on one the bomb sight froze.
On 12 August four tried to bomb various targets one abandoned the mission due to turbo problems
On 16th August a b17 was intercepted at 32,000 ft and was destroyed in a crash landing.
On 19th August a mission was abandoned due to the guns freezing and the same happened on the 21st
Bombing accuracy was very dissapointing so much so that on the 21 one bomber took up Mr Voss of the Sperry company as the bomb aimer and the bombs still fell wide of the target. As well as this the aircraft was considered to be very vulnerable to fighter attack as it caught fire easily.
To be fair if it didn't catch fire then it could take a lot of damage, and if the weather was perfect and opposition slight then the accuracy could be exceptional, but these situations over Germany were rare.
To go back to my original point. These are the sort of things that should have been sorted by the USAAF when it was introduced into service. To have these things going wrong 12-18 months later tells me that in 1940 the B17 couldn't be considered an operational aircraft. On paper it might but for the crews that had to fly it, it wasn't
Shortround6
Major General
Bombers operated at widely varying heights even for the SAME bomber.
Figures from an old William Green book ( updates welcome) for a He 111P-4 with DB 601A-1 engines and an empty weight "equipped" of 17,670lbs are a service ceiling of 26,250ft at 23,590 lbs and a service ceiling of just 14,765 ft at 29,762 lbs. Cruising speed (85% power) at 6560 ft drops from 212 mph to 190 mph. Perhaps a combination of increase drag due to increase lift needed AND increased drag due to max bomb load including a pair of 500kg bombs being slung externally?
Raids by 1-4 aircraft can be done at higher altitudes than raids by 50-100 planes because altitude will be governed by worst plane in the formation and the need for the plane/s on the edge of the formation to have a reserve of power to maintain formation. Even a 45 degree turn means the outer planes have to speed up in relation to the inner planes to avoid the formation breaking up.
Figures from an old William Green book ( updates welcome) for a He 111P-4 with DB 601A-1 engines and an empty weight "equipped" of 17,670lbs are a service ceiling of 26,250ft at 23,590 lbs and a service ceiling of just 14,765 ft at 29,762 lbs. Cruising speed (85% power) at 6560 ft drops from 212 mph to 190 mph. Perhaps a combination of increase drag due to increase lift needed AND increased drag due to max bomb load including a pair of 500kg bombs being slung externally?
Raids by 1-4 aircraft can be done at higher altitudes than raids by 50-100 planes because altitude will be governed by worst plane in the formation and the need for the plane/s on the edge of the formation to have a reserve of power to maintain formation. Even a 45 degree turn means the outer planes have to speed up in relation to the inner planes to avoid the formation breaking up.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
For me its between the He 111 or the Wellington. Both tough, both for there day good load haulers with good range and I imagine if they had a bomb off in daylight they both would have got roughly the same accuracy. For obvious reasons the Wellington lasted in service longer training versions lasted till 1953 and one Welli was fitted with Dart Turboprops.
