1940: the best bomber in service?

[fastmongrel]

I bet the tail gunner got a warm backside

 

[cimmex]

For obvious reasons the Wellington lasted in service longer training versions lasted till 1953 and one Welli was fitted with Dart Turboprops.

The Spanish build He111(CASA 2.111) was in service till late sixties.
cimmex

 

[fastmongrel]

The Spanish build He111(CASA 2.111) was in service till late sixties.
cimmex

Your right I forgot about the Merlin engined CASA 111s

 

[beitou]

Was there ever an attempt made to fit a mid upper turret to the wellington, it seemed very vulnerable with just front and rear turrets?

 

[Shortround6]

Aside from the one with the 40mm cannon?

It took the British awhile to come up with a low profile top turret. The Wellington may have been better off with no top turret than a large one with only two .303s.

 

[wiking85]

IMHO it was the He 111. The plane had nice handling qualities, good range. More importantly, it was very well armored with self sealing tanks (something that early Wellingtons lacked). Bombing equipment was also state of the art, all of them had Knickebein blind bombing aids, and the Lofte 7 bombsight was also as good as it can get for 1940.. RAF bombers had AFAIK through most of the war only vector sights. Externally the aircraft could carry some very large bombs up to 2500 kg.

The downside was the fairly weak defensive armament, as although there were numerous MGs, they were all single barrel and drum fed.

The Ju 88 was a good alternative, but since the bomb bay was very limited in size, it could not carry as many 250 kgers as the 111, and would limit its usefullness for conventional bombing tasks.

The Ju88 mounted big bombs externally, had greater range and payload with external hardpoint mounts than the He111, because they used the same engine, but the Ju88 was lighter by 2000kg. The Ju88 was superior to the He111 in every performance area except for cockpit space.

 

[Vincenzo]

The 88 has not more payload and range of 111, also the 111 can use external bomb load. the 88 is 2 tons lighter ?? afaik no.

 

[Shortround6]

Care to explain which models of the Ju-88 and He-111 you are comparing?

While the Ju-88 was an amazing aircraft, being able to fly further on a lot less fuel ( 762 imp gal for the He 111 wing tanks vs 369 Imp gallons for the Ju-88 wing tanks ?) is truly amazing.

While the Ju-88A-4 usually had an extra 268 Imp gallon tank in the forward bomb bay the He-111s with an external bomb rack carried 183 Imp gallons in the blocked off half of the bomb bay for a fuel capacity of 945 Imp gallons to 636 Imp gallons in the Ju-88.

He-111 could still carry up to 2200lb (4 X 550) inside. Ju-88 could carry 1100lbs (10 X 110) in rear bomb bay.

Ju-88 could carry a bigger bomb load IF configured right but carry an average bomb load as far????

 

[Glider]

Which I think supports my view that the Wellington was more flexible than the He111 carrying considerably more innternally. Including the 4,000lb bomb and two torpedo's

 

[drgondog]

I thought the B-17 hardly ever operated at 30K, even in its later dubtypes. B-17s in 1944 attacked at a median altitude of 26k, maybe +/- 2000ft

Parsifal - you are correct. My single point is that many of the problems encountered by RAF in their trials were due to operating the B-17s at max operational altitude with a bombload - and that comparing performance of a Weelington, He 111 and Ju 88 flying operationally most of the time at 15-18000 feet to the B-17 at 30-32,000 feet is not valid.

The modifications resulting from these experiences produced the B-17E which was a much better combat ready airplane produced in 1941. There was very little difference between the B-17C and B-17D

 

[Shortround6]

Bomber performance is much more variable than fighter performance as we seldom see fighter performance while carrying a bomb load. And for the most part, bomber weight varies much more than fighter weight.

Bomber "service" ceiling can vary by around 10,000ft from "light" (no bombs, under 1/2 fuel) to full overload (max bombs and fuel and restricted flight maneuvers), standard operational height is somewhere in between.

B-17s used by the 8th Airforce not only gained a slight bit in bomb load but gained power turrets, extra guns and much more ammo which all added to the weight and the extra drag of the turrets also affects the ceiling. The B-17 gained very little power over it's career.

 

[Vincenzo]

Which I think supports my view that the Wellington was more flexible than the He111 carrying considerably more innternally. Including the 4,000lb bomb and two torpedo's

The internal laod of Wellington are 4,500 lbs of bombs and 5400 lbs of fuel (probably not all with all the bombs), the internal bomb load of 111 is 4,400 lbs and 5600 lbs of fuel (again not both contemporary can load around 4000 lbs of bomb with full fuel) so no actual advantage. The Wellington as TB was not a 1940 plane, the bomb bay of Wellington was actually 2 bomb bay so as standard can not load a 4000 lb bomb.

 

[wiking85]

Care to explain which models of the Ju-88 and He-111 you are comparing?

Since we are talking about 1940 that would be the Ju88A1 and the He111H1:
I can not find specs for these models online to repost here. I know that the Ju88A1 was at least 1 ton lighter than the A4 version.

He-111 could still carry up to 2200lb (4 X 550) inside. Ju-88 could carry 1100lbs (10 X 110) in rear bomb bay.

As far as internal capacity goes the HE111 wins. It total ability to haul bombs and how far that matters.

Ju-88 could carry a bigger bomb load IF configured right but carry an average bomb load as far????

Don't know, can't find the information online.

 

[Glider]

The internal laod of Wellington are 4,500 lbs of bombs and 5400 lbs of fuel (probably not all with all the bombs), the internal bomb load of 111 is 4,400 lbs and 5600 lbs of fuel (again not both contemporary can load around 4000 lbs of bomb with full fuel) so no actual advantage. The Wellington as TB was not a 1940 plane, the bomb bay of Wellington was actually 2 bomb bay so as standard can not load a 4000 lb bomb.

I live and learn, thanks for this its much appreciated,

 

[Vincenzo]

Since we are talking about 1940 that would be the Ju88A1 and the He111H1:
.

afaik 111H-2 was available for the polish canpain

 

[Juha]

To be precis the first Wimpy version to be able to carry a 4000lb bomb was Mk III