A look at German fighter Ace kill claims (1 Viewer)

[CHen10]

You can't dismiss Soviet records but accept German records

 

[BiffF15]

Well if we assume that records are incorrect why not assume Hartmann is a liar? If we go down the path of military records are wrong then maybe Hartmann was lying all the time and as a result the German records were wrong. He says "I shot this and this down" and then the Germans document those claims meaning they document the claims that are fraudulent.

I don't believe Hartmann was a liar

But you could argue he was if you say records are wrong

If you assume Bubi was a liar, then you have to assume all the rest were.

I wouldn't assume he was a liar. He had a witness for his confirmed kills correct? So his wingman was a liar then too?

It's easy to call a dead guy a liar, you face no ramifications or blowback from your target. The thing I look at is he day after day, sometimes multiple times a day, flew combat missions where your visual lookout skills, your skill & cunning, and sometimes luck kept him alive. I give the guy in the arena much more latitude. I've posted this before but it's still valid here.

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

Teddy Roosevelt

 

[CHen10]

If you assume Bubi was a liar, then you have to assume all the rest were.

I wouldn't assume he was a liar. He had a witness for his confirmed kills correct? So his wingman was a liar then too?

If you assume Soviet records are wrong then you might as well assume Hartmann and his wingmen were liars and that this caused German documents to be wrong.

They are both just as far fetched

It's unrealistic to say the German documents are all correct but the Soviet documents are wrong.

Soviet reports also give a list of activities carried out by the unit that day and so for example there could be 7 bullet points describing the 7 tasks. If you find all 7 actions then all the actions for the unit that day are accounted for.

So far I have never found a missing action.

If it says 4 actions that day were carried out by the unit then you will always find 4.

And of course mistakes will accidentally be made when documenting the actions. A pilot might report he was shot down but at the wrong time. So if the time is actually 1200 hours it could be written as 1210 hours for example. But the details are still close enough to the opposite claim.

 

[CHen10]

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."

Teddy Roosevelt

This quote is irrelevant.

If you have proof something happened differently than what someone who fought in a war said, your proof isn't invalid just because you haven't fought in a war.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting the quote, I don't know