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Hello Snautzer01, thank you for the information. Where would these gun cams be held if they survived? Regards, LizHi LIz what you want are the gun cams . Most did not survive, the were mentioned as proof with the claim.
Thank you Snautzer01, yes I have this already. I've been doing extensive research over several years into two aircraft that collided 15.03.44, namely ND576 AND ME573. I've even been to Germany to research the archives there. My uncle was in the ND576 aircraft, and when the planes collided, four men swapped places, basically, two men from each crew ended up with the opposite crew, so my uncle and his friend ended up with the ME573 crew, and two from that crew ended up with my uncle's plane. Given all the timings, it looks as if the film in question could well be the one which shoots down the ME573 before it is hit by my uncle's plane 2 minutes later. The ND576 was at a higher altitude and after being shot down simply went into a steep dive, plunging downwards quickly like a stone falling, and then hitting the ME573 which was going down at a much slower rate and sadly ended up in the path of my uncle's plane. On impact, both planes broke apart and the four men swapped places before ME573 exploded. Both aircraft came down landing 2-3 kilometers apart. I have the eye witness reports, and the pilot of my uncle's plane was actually blown out of the plane at the collision point and survived. I was really fortunate to be able to correspond with him for many years. I just now have a few pieces of the jigsaw to put together. Namely, I have very few photographs of the crew of ME573, and it would have been nice to have had photos of all the men involved. I have eleven out of the fifteen. However, when I saw that there may have been a film to the shooting down of ME573, I was interested to see how damaged it originally had been before finally being hit by my uncle's plane, assuming of course this film shows this. I really appreciate your advice. Every little bit of information is important to verify the facts. Once again. Many, many thanks. Liz
Thank you Snautzer01, yes I have this already. I've been doing extensive research over several years into two aircraft that collided 15.03.44, namely ND576 AND ME573. I've even been to Germany to research the archives there. My uncle was in the ND576 aircraft, and when the planes collided, four men swapped places, basically, two men from each crew ended up with the opposite crew, so my uncle and his friend ended up with the ME573 crew, and two from that crew ended up with my uncle's plane. Given all the timings, it looks as if the film in question could well be the one which shoots down the ME573 before it is hit by my uncle's plane 2 minutes later. The ND576 was at a higher altitude and after being shot down simply went into a steep dive, plunging downwards quickly like a stone falling, and then hitting the ME573 which was going down at a much slower rate and sadly ended up in the path of my uncle's plane. On impact, both planes broke apart and the four men swapped places before ME573 exploded. Both aircraft came down landing 2-3 kilometers apart. I have the eye witness reports, and the pilot of my uncle's plane was actually blown out of the plane at the collision point and survived. I was really fortunate to be able to correspond with him for many years. I just now have a few pieces of the jigsaw to put together. Namely, I have very few photographs of the crew of ME573, and it would have been nice to have had photos of all the men involved. I have eleven out of the fifteen. However, when I saw that there may have been a film to the shooting down of ME573, I was interested to see how damaged it originally had been before finally being hit by my uncle's plane, assuming of course this film shows this. I really appreciate your advice. Every little bit of information is important to verify the facts. Once again. Many, many thanks. Liz
I think the changes on finding this are very very remote. On you tube there are some to be found.
For the interested see:
Accident Avro Lancaster Mk I ME573, 15 Mar 1944 notice cause of crash was heavy flak units .
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/AlliedLossesIncidents/?q=ME573
Crew ND576 Sagar, Joseph | The Jews of the RAF
From Kagero JG 301 Wilde Sau. No mention of Muller
this
View attachment 587241
Hi Snautzer01,I think the changes on finding this are very very remote. On you tube there are some to be found.
For the interested see:
Accident Avro Lancaster Mk I ME573, 15 Mar 1944 notice cause of crash was heavy flak units .
http://www.aircrewremembered.com/AlliedLossesIncidents/?q=ME573
Crew ND576 Sagar, Joseph | The Jews of the RAF
From Kagero JG 301 Wilde Sau. No mention of Muller
this
View attachment 587241
Thank you. Much appreciated. LizFlak would not have a problem for 10.000ft. Round the big cities rader guided batteries were formed . I will ask Theo Boiten, renowed author on german night fighter his view later today on what happened.
Theo, and other renowned authors and researchers hang out at this site. Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum - Powered by vBulletin
If these people can't help, then I don't know who can.
EDIT: According to "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 - Wilde Sau" by Reschke, 2 Lancasters were shot down by Feldwebel Gerhard Koch of 1 Staffel JG301 at 2325 and 2335 hours on the night of March 14-15, 1944. The Laubenheimer claim is also noted, this being on the night of March 16 at 2325 hours. Also no mention of Muller in either engagement.
In my opinion, I would suggest that, even were a film to shown up, there would be very little to see given the time. Most likely just black background with white flashes from hits perhaps followed by fire. It would be unlikely that anything of substance would be seen.
Flak units also kept record of kills.
It is in the archives. Do not know if it is on line.Do you happen to have a link for these?
Just a side-note: it was not very common for nightfighters to record footage as their gun-cams didn't have night (low light) optics.
So if the engagement occurred between the time of nautical twilight and nautical dawn, chances are, there wouldn't have been any footage captured.
Night: 15-16. March 1944
R.A.F. Bomber Command: STUTTGART
JaFüe I. u. II. Jagdkorps:
15.03.44 Hptm. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin Stab II./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg. EN: 5.400 m. [St. Loup-Luxeuil] 22.10 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.43
15.03.44 Oblt. Heinz Rökker 2./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg. 50 km. S.W. Strasbourg: 6.200 m. 22.26 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Hptm. Reschke Stab I./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg. S.W. Strasbourg: no height 22.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.67
15.03.44 Maj. Rolf Leuchs Stab II./NJG 6 4-mot. Flzg. 25 km. S.W. St. Die: 5.500 m. 22.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
15.03.44 Uffz. Deh 6./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.N.E. FF Christa: 6.500 m. 22.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.39
15.03.44 Hptm. Eckart-Wilhelm von Bonin Stab II./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg. EO: 5.800 m. [Le Thillot/Voges] 22.41 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.44
15.03.44 Ofw. Kellermann L.Beo.St. 7 Lancaster 10 km. W. Überlinger See: no height 22.58 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
15.03.44 Fw. Rauer 3./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg. J Gradnetz BR-CR: 6.200 m. 22.58 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.84
15.03.44 Hptm. Gerhard Raht 4./NJG 3 4-mot. Flzg. S.W. Stuttgart: 5.700 m. 23.12 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr. -
15.03.44 Oblt. Fritz Lau 4./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.südl. Stuttgart: 6.300 m. 23.14 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.61
15.03.44 Oblt. Koeberich 6./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg. i.Raum Bodensee-Ulm: 6.200 m. 23.15 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.44
15.03.44 Fw. Helmut Bunje 4./NJG 6 4-mot. Flzg. 30 km. S.W. Echterdingen: 6.700 m. 23.19 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.4
15.03.44 Uffz. Müller Stab I./JG 301 Lancaster N. Stuttgart: 5.400 m. 23.23 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.2
15.03.44 Hptm. Heinz-Horst Hißbach 5./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg. 70 km. S. Stuttgart: 6.300 m. 23.26 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.56
15.03.44 Uffz. Bruno Rupp 4./NJG 3 4-mot. Flzg. S.W. Stuttgart: 5.800 m. 23.28 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.38
15.03.44 Hptm. Berthold Ney Stab III./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg. Stuttgart: 6.500 m. 23.28 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Fw. Laubenstein Stab I./JG 301 Lancaster N. Stuttgart: 5.500 m. 23.28 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
**************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
15.03.44 Ltn. Ternieden 6./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg. 15 km. S.S.E. Tübingen: 6.000 m. 23.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.45
15.03.44 Uffz. Kilchling [sic] 7./NJG 1 4-mot. Flzg.südl. Stuttgart: 5.500 m. 23.33 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.43
15.03.44 Uffz. Oppermann 8./NJG 2 4-mot. Flzg. N. Stuttgart: 5.600 m. 23.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.4
15.03.44 Oblt. Rolf Bussmann 10./NJG 5 4-mot. Flzg. E. Offenburg: 5.600 m. 23.32 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.6
15.03.44 Uffz. Koch I./JG 301 Lancaster S.W. Stuttgart: 5.800 m. 23.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.7 **************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
15.03.44 Uffz. Koch I./JG 301 Lancaster Stuttgart: 6.200 m. 23.35 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.5 **************************************************************************************************************************************************************************15.03.44 Ltn. Trabert 9./JG 300 4-mot. Flzg. S. Stuttgart: 5.400 m. 23.36 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.3
15.03.44 Uffz. Lorenz Gerstmayr 4./NJG 3 4-mot. Flzg. S.E. Stuttgart: 5.800 m. 23.37 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.39
15.03.44 Hptm. Floitgraf Stab III./NJG 102 Halifax Raum Bernhausen: no height 23.37 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.1
15.03.44 Ltn. Gabler 9./JG 300 4-mot. Flzg. S. Stuttgart: 4.500 m. 23.39 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: ASM
15.03.44 Oblt. Rolf Bussmann 10./NJG 5 4-mot. Flzg. Schlettert-Strasbourg: 6.200 m. 23.45 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.7
15.03.44 Oblt. Rolf Bussmann 10./NJG 5 4-mot. Flzg.Raum St. Die: 5.800 m. 23.56 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.8
16.03.44 Oblt. Dietrich Schmidt 8./NJG 1 Lancaster 1 km. S.E. Longwiller: 6.300 m. 00.56 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.34
16.03.44 Hptm. Ludwig Meister 1./NJG 4 Halifax südl. Aachen: 6.000 m. 01.11 Film C. 2025/I Anerk: Nr.22
16.03.44 Hptm. Ludwig Meister 1./NJG 4 Lancaster 2 km. S. Berine: 6.300 m. 01.30 Film C. 20
*THE ONES THAT I HAVE MARKED ARE THE ONLY ONES THAT COULD HAVE SHOT DOWN ONE OR BOTH OF MY LANCASTERS IF IT WAS A NIGHTFIGHTER PLANE, AND NOT FLAK.*
Reich West Sud Jana Pr PDF - [PDF Document]
15./16. März 1944 23:10 bis 00:13 Uhr Innenstadt, Akademie, Vaihingen, Möhringen 88 Tote, 203 Verwundete 863
Flak in Stuttgart Flakstellungen
View attachment 587330