Aircraft Disasters

[swampyankee]

Makes me wonder, as a "Monday morning quarterback"-- back in 1903, if Will and Orville had realized all this, if they might have said: "Screw this Kitty Hawk stuff, let's haul ass back to Dayton and build more bicycles instead."

Hell, considering that there's an increasingly popular blogger out there who is recommending drivers kill cyclists by deliberately running into them, Orville & Wilbur would probably have followed their father into the religion business.

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

Hell, considering that there's an increasingly popular blogger out there who is recommending drivers kill cyclists by deliberately running into them, Orville & Wilbur would probably have followed their father into the religion business.

Say, I didn't know that Orville and Wilber's Daddy was a Preacher Man. Learn something new every live-long day-- Boy howdy, that blogger has to be one sick puppy to promote that business- did he read the Charles Manson manifesto somewhere along the line?

 

[pbehn]

Makes me wonder, as a "Monday morning quarterback"-- back in 1903, if Will and Orville had realized all this, if they might have said: "Screw this Kitty Hawk stuff, let's haul ass back to Dayton and build more bicycles instead."

That is the way of the world. My home town was the destination of the first passenger steam railway, which is noted in places all over the town, what is not noted is that it killed someone on its first journey, and while "Locomotion No1" is preserved in a museum "Locomotion No2" no longer exists because it blew up. George Stevenson did make the first practical loco but it didn't have a pressure safety valve. Bureaucracy and administration is a PIA but you must say it works, I remember in the 60s and 70s all sorts of famous and non famous people killed in plane, train and car crashes.The problem is many people get crushed in the fall out. I knew a guy who was suspended from all work for 5 years as a result of others in another country fiddling chemical analysis results. When the pipeline cracked and the merde hit the fan even those who were doing their job correctly were penalised, basically just for being there.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Orville & Wilbur would probably have followed their father into the religion business.

Hey, they were smart, inventive, and dedicated money grubbers to boot. They could have made a fortune in tort law pursuing economic justice for victims of anti bicycle genocide!
Cheers,
Wes

 

[MIflyer]

"They also really hated cleaning up after each shot."

A friend of mine in Oklahoma had cousin who was an airline pilot. One day his cousin walked into the pilot's lounge and saw another airline pilot he knew sitting there, dejectedly. He asked what was wrong.

The other pilot replied, "They cancelled my flight! I fired up engine number one and all was Okay. I fired up number two and all was Okay. I fired up number three and all was Okay. And then I fired up number four, but.they had parked the food service truck too close and I sucked up one hundred and sixty seven chicken salad sandwiches."

Imagine cleaning up that mess!

 

[MIflyer]

",,,if Will and Orville had realized all this..."

The histories never seem to mention that immediately after that first flight Orville's luggage was found to be missing.

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

Makes me wonder, as a "Monday morning quarterback"-- back in 1903, if Will and Orville had realized all this, if they might have said: "Screw this Kitty Hawk stuff, let's haul ass back to Dayton and build more bicycles instead."

Danke- Herr Adler!!

 

[Hansie Bloeckmann]

"They also really hated cleaning up after each shot."

A friend of mine in Oklahoma had cousin who was an airline pilot. One day his cousin walked into the pilot's lounge and saw another airline pilot he knew sitting there, dejectedly. He asked what was wrong.

The other pilot replied, "They cancelled my flight! I fired up engine number one and all was Okay. I fired up number two and all was Okay. I fired up number three and all was Okay. And then I fired up number four, but.they had parked the food service truck too close and I sucked up one hundred and sixty seven chicken salad sandwiches."

Imagine cleaning up that mess!

Wonder what Charlie Da Tuna would have said about that SNAFU..

 

[MiTasol]

I get that, believe me I have been in the industry for almost 2 decades, and I work in the safety department.
Nothing in that instance had anything to do with the pilot. Maybe ground operations. Probably, most likely company procedures and policies, but the pilots should not have been thrown under the bus and have a mark on their record.

Been there 50+ years and also in Safety Management (a Fit and Proper Person for the purposes of being an airline Safety Manager in accordance with ICAO annex 13 and ICAO training). DerAdlerIstGelandet is 1,000% correct. On aircraft with a known aft CG issue company procedure should start with the installation of a pogo stick as soon as the engines stop (and removal immediately prior to start) to prevent the tail dropping. Did it? If not the root cause is almost certainly that Ground Operations management failed to take preventative action for a well known hazard. If they do normally fit the pogo stick, why did the bag snatchers fail to correctly fit it, etc. Why was the baggage cart parked too close to the aircraft? Were ANY risk assessments made and preventative measures in place to prevent this accident? Both pilots and maintenance are fault free on this one.

A good one for the induction procedures and renewals for all bag snatchers and their managers. (I use the example of Qantas unloading the Korean Airlines DC-10 in Sydney where they failed to move any of the rear ULDs forward on the main deck, unloaded the front belly locker first and had just positioned the FMC at the rear locker when they pulled a pallet containing a car out the (front) main deck cargo door. As the load mass moved to the scissor lift the tail dropped, lifting the end of the pallet still inside the aircraft. When the door sill was too high to continue supporting the pallet it dropped and ended up inside the mechanism of the scissors lift, with the car still firmly attached. The FMC and rear locker structure were sexually distressed)

 

[XBe02Drvr]

Been there 50+ years and also in Safety Management (a Fit and Proper Person for the purposes of being an airline Safety Manager in accordance with ICAO annex 13 and ICAO training). DerAdlerIstGelandet is 1,000% correct. On aircraft with a known aft CG issue company procedure should start with the installation of a pogo stick as soon as the engines stop (and removal immediately prior to start) to prevent the tail dropping.

In my six years of Be1900 flying I never saw a pogo stick in use in passenger flight operations, only in the maintenance shop and in freight ops. I don't think anyone wanted to concede the plane had a tail heaviness problem, at least not in the public eye. A 1900 with three mechs working in the baggage compartment and no one in the cockpit was definitely a candidate for a sit-down strike. Our airline in a previous incarnation had operated G-1C Gulfstream airliners that if empty would sit down if you looked at them cross-eyed, and encountered a lot of customer resistance to getting on a plane that "had to be propped up". There were a lot of 1900 airliners working in the northeast in the '80s with not a tail stand in sight.
Stripping out the airline interior to make a freighter shifts the empty CG aft, and the long slender, low ceiling cabin makes stowing heavy objects forward a back-breaking PITA. Thus, they tend to wind up tail heavy.
As for throwing the flight crew under the bus, it's right in the regs in the definition of Aircraft Accident. Any substantial or greater damage, injury, or fatality with passengers aboard with the intention of flight constitutes an Aircraft Accident.
Aircraft Accidents are routinely entered onto the FAA records of any holders of airman certificates that are connected to those accidents. (Which are public records, BTW) This includes besides aircrew, dispatchers, mechanics, air traffic controllers, and aviation weather observers. Thus the pilot who's inside getting a weather briefing while a gate agent seats the passengers in the plane when a baggage smasher bangs his vehicle into the aircraft and his co-worker gets a bloody nose now has an accident on his/her record. Said pilot is now unlikely to advance in the aviation world. If he/she is ever connected to any future mishap, the tort lawyers will have a field day.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[MiTasol]

A friend of mine in Oklahoma had cousin who was an airline pilot. One day his cousin walked into the pilot's lounge and saw another airline pilot he knew sitting there, dejectedly. He asked what was wrong.

The other pilot replied, "They cancelled my flight! I fired up engine number one and all was Okay. I fired up number two and all was Okay. I fired up number three and all was Okay. And then I fired up number four, but.they had parked the food service truck too close and I sucked up one hundred and sixty seven chicken salad sandwiches."

Imagine cleaning up that mess!

Ansett Australia staff severely damaged an A320 horizontal stab (and a catering scissor truck) when the caterers drove up in the catering truck and started servicing the rear galley just before the ground staff started to tow the aircraft without doing an all clear check. Ansett suspended the towing staff on full pay for three months. Not what I would call encouragement not to repeat the "mistake". Fortunately all the catering staff were in the galley as they would have sustained injuries if they were in the truck with the box in the raised position when it rolled. Those catering trolleys are NOT light and cause many cabin crew injuries every year during turbulence.

Back when I started on Electra's (the P3 Orions older brother for those not familiar with the aircraft) we were taught to park the ground power cart across the nose because if the brakes were accidentally released during engine start only the radome and gear doors (and reputations) would get damaged. When I joined Ansett their policy was to park the ground cart parallel to the fuselage with the tow-motor parked turning away from the fuselage immediately in front of #3 engine. One night a big storm caused an empty aircraft to weathercock and severely damaged the nose. Even then they still did not learn. You can see why I refused to park the towmotor close to the props - 3750 hp feeding four 1/2 inch thick steel blades with very thin leading and trailing edges driven by a constant speed engine (idles at 13,820rpm, Takeoff at 13,820rpm) Prop rpm is 1020. Power increases from minimum to TO as fast as the blades change pitch (very fast but I cannot remember the time)

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

An Antonov An-148 from Saratov Airlines with 6 crew and 65 passengers on board crashed today. All souls on board were killed.

ASN Aircraft accident Antonov An-148-100 RA-61704 Stepanovskoye, Ramenskoye District

 

[XBe02Drvr]

An Antonov An-148 from Saratov Airlines with 6 crew and 65 passengers on board crashed today. All souls on board were killed.

ASN Aircraft accident Antonov An-148-100 RA-61704 Stepanovskoye, Ramenskoye District

Thoughts and prayers go out to the friends and families of the victims.
Tailplane icing/stall? Last part of that altitude profile looks a lot like the Eagle ATR72 at Roselawn, IN in 1994. That also was a T tail plane that departed in freezing precip with a de-icing delay.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Thoughts and prayers go out to the friends and families of the victims.
Tailplane icing/stall? Last part of that altitude profile looks a lot like the Eagle ATR72 at Roselawn, IN in 1994. That also was a T tail plane that departed in freezing precip with a de-icing delay.

Possibly. What I am thinking.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

You can see why I refused to park the towmotor close to the props - 3750 hp feeding four 1/2 inch thick steel blades with very thin leading and trailing edges driven by a constant speed engine (idles at 13,820rpm, Takeoff at 13,820rpm) Prop rpm is 1020. Power increases from minimum to TO as fast as the blades change pitch (very fast but I cannot remember the time)

Never had any encounters with the "Starling Smasher", but I can tell you when a P3 goes from loiter cruise to high speed dash it sets you right back in your seat and spills your coffee!
Charlie model has 4800 HP x 4.
Cheers
Wes

 

[gumbyk]

Been there 50+ years and also in Safety Management (a Fit and Proper Person for the purposes of being an airline Safety Manager in accordance with ICAO annex 13 and ICAO training). DerAdlerIstGelandet is 1,000% correct. On aircraft with a known aft CG issue company procedure should start with the installation of a pogo stick as soon as the engines stop (and removal immediately prior to start) to prevent the tail dropping. Did it? If not the root cause is almost certainly that Ground Operations management failed to take preventative action for a well known hazard. If they do normally fit the pogo stick, why did the bag snatchers fail to correctly fit it, etc. Why was the baggage cart parked too close to the aircraft? Were ANY risk assessments made and preventative measures in place to prevent this accident? Both pilots and maintenance are fault free on this one.

A good one for the induction procedures and renewals for all bag snatchers and their managers. (I use the example of Qantas unloading the Korean Airlines DC-10 in Sydney where they failed to move any of the rear ULDs forward on the main deck, unloaded the front belly locker first and had just positioned the FMC at the rear locker when they pulled a pallet containing a car out the (front) main deck cargo door. As the load mass moved to the scissor lift the tail dropped, lifting the end of the pallet still inside the aircraft. When the door sill was too high to continue supporting the pallet it dropped and ended up inside the mechanism of the scissors lift, with the car still firmly attached. The FMC and rear locker structure were sexually distressed)

I'll add another safety manager's voice to agree to this. Generally, when you do a root cause analysis, the cause is fairly far removed from what it may seem. Even in cases where people haven't followed published procedures, I've seen a root cause that came back to management because they hadn't allowed sufficient time to complete a task per the procedures.

We had an airline here who flew 1900's, and I've never seen tail supports used while loading/unloading. But, I have heard that their configuration left the aircraft with a fwd CofG., so maybe they didn't need them. We have another airline here who uses them religiously with their caravans.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

I'll add another safety manager's voice to agree to this. Generally, when you do a root cause analysis, the cause is fairly far removed from what it may seem. Even in cases where people haven't followed published procedures, I've seen a root cause that came back to management because they hadn't allowed sufficient time to complete a task per the procedures.

AMEN!! AA191 anybody? How about AK261?

 

[XBe02Drvr]

We had an airline here who flew 1900's, and I've never seen tail supports used while loading/unloading. But, I have heard that their configuration left the aircraft with a fwd CofG., so maybe they didn't need them. We have another airline here who uses them religiously with their caravans.

With an airline interior installed, the CG isn't too too bad in the C (if you don't abuse it) and the D has more electronics forward so it's even better. The Caravan with an empty cockpit can be tipsy if the cargo loaders aren't careful, so a pogo stick is a must.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[MiTasol]

I'll add another safety manager's voice to agree to this. Generally, when you do a root cause analysis, the cause is fairly far removed from what it may seem. Even in cases where people haven't followed published procedures, I've seen a root cause that came back to management because they hadn't allowed sufficient time to complete a task per the procedures.

One of the best investigations of an accident I have seen was regarding a 747 that had an engine drag on the runway during landing in Japan after a long flight from the USA way back (early 90's from memory).

Root causes included poor lighting, inadequate maintenance stands, parts storage, the design of the part that was not refitted, shift handover procedures, the documentation and five or six other items. Very thought provoking. From memory it was also distributed as an FAA FSAT or FSAW.. I shall try and find again.

 

[MiTasol]

One of the best investigations of an accident I have seen was regarding a 747 that had an engine drag on the runway during landing in Japan after a long flight from the USA way back (early 90's from memory).

FSAW attached. About 1/4 the text of the original report and no photos but a good summary