"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (3 Viewers)

[Thumpalumpacus]

I know it's life or death, but if I was a young Ukrainian pilot this would have to be one of the highlights of my life. You go from a Ukrainian unit making do with old Russian kit to Morris ANG Base to train on F-16s. Just look at this place, amazing.

Photos: 162nd Wing, Arizona Air National Guard at TIA

The Arizona Air National Guard's 162nd fighter wing at Tucson International Airport through the years.

tucson.com

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My understanding is that the real benefit of American avionics is the relief of pilot workload in processing info. BiffF15 would provide better info from his personal experience. The Russian airframes, from my understanding, are pretty handy all the same.

 

[Admiral Beez]

My understanding is that the real benefit of American avionics is the relief of pilot workload in processing info.

Good point. I'm no pilot, but this Fulcrum's seat looks like a dog's breakfast. Where exactly on this web of dials and knobs am I supposed to be focusing in order to optimize the aircraft whilst searching/tracking targets and avoiding CFIT?

 

[swampyankee]

Not only DNA. Who is hurt the most in this dust up? How does this affect the Wagner Group going forward? Is there a reason why the destruction of the aircraft is 'so obviously Putin'? If the Russians wanted him dead (clearly many did) why not whack him out of the public eye - and make everybody speculate?

Putin has demonstrated, repeatedly, that the term "innocent bystander" is just another term for "completely unimportant," so I'd not be surprised if he were responsible for loss of the people in the plane. On the other hand, Putin has a highly obedient judiciary. A show trial and death by food poisoning would be an ironic end for Putin's caterer.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Putin has demonstrated, repeatedly, that the term "innocent bystander" is just another term for "completely unimportant," so I'd not be surprised if he were responsible for loss of the people in the plane. On the other hand, Putin has a highly obedient judiciary. A show trial and death by food poisoning would be an ironic end for Putin's caterer.

I'm actually rereading Gulag Archipelago right now and just getting to the part covering the 1928 show trials. In my reply earlier, that was precisely what I was thinking when I wrote that this visibility was part of Putin's plan -- it's why I wrote that "rule by terror only works if the terror is visible."

This is a 21st-century version of a Stalinist show-trial, to my thinking -- except that there's enough plausible deniability to perhaps get at least some Wagnerites to return peacefully to their deaths.

And yes, Putin may well be, one day, himself subject to a more direct analogy of those 1920s-1930s trials. It's kinda a Russian thing.

 

[BiffF15]

My understanding is that the real benefit of American avionics is the relief of pilot workload in processing info. BiffF15 would provide better info from his personal experience. The Russian airframes, from my understanding, are pretty handy all the same.

The Russian command and control drives how they operate. The radar controls in the Fulcrum are designed so the controller can talk his pilot onto his target. The pilot's situational awareness (SA) is of secondary or less importance. The Western mentality is the exact opposite. The pilots SA, and mission, is of primary importance and everything is designed to support that. Our avionics are on a totally different level than the Russian stuff.

Hardware wise, the Flanker is an impressive jet, lots of gas, lots of weapons stations, fly by wire, great maneuverability, giant motors. Of all the Russian stuff that is the one I would most like to fly.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

The Russian command and control drives how they operate. The radar controls in the Fulcrum are designed so the controller can talk his pilot onto his target. The pilot's situational awareness (SA) is of secondary or less importance. The Western mentality is the exact opposite. The pilots SA, and mission, is of primary importance and everything is designed to support that. Our avionics are on a totally different level than the Russian stuff.

Hardware wise, the Flanker is an impressive jet, lots of gas, lots of weapons stations, fly by wire, great maneuverability, giant motors. Of all the Russian stuff that is the one I would most like to fly.

Yeah, the centralized fighter direction is also something I remember reading as an Iraqi deficiency in GW1, which is why some of our first strikes were against IAF radar and C³ sites -- to allow the follow-on strikes less interference.

 

[BiffF15]

Yeah, the centralized fighter direction is also something I remember reading as an Iraqi deficiency in GW1, which is why some of our first strikes were against IAF radar and C³ sites -- to allow the follow-on strikes less interference.

The IAF was peeled layer by layer. They had virtually no chance.

 

[swampyankee]

With both Prigozhin and Dmitry Utkin killed on the plane and Sergei Surovikin also removed, Zelensky should almost give Putin a medal for services to Ukraine.

All the third-world PoS dictators will mourn Prigozhin's death. They'll need to find new rent-a-thug supplier

 

[GrauGeist]

Well, this is an interesting twist...

Pro-Kyiv Russians urge Wagner Group to revenge Prigozhin's death

A group of Russian militants who fight on the Ukrainian side called on the Wagner Group of mercenaries to switch sides and join their ranks to revenge the deaths of Wagner founder Yevgeny Prigozhin and their commander Dmitry Utkin.

www.reuters.com

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

One question.

If Pig had agreed to settle in Belarus, why he was in Moscow?

And what a coincidence that general Surovikin was released from home arresto, no?

 

[gumbyk]

One question.

If Pig had agreed to settle in Belarus, why he was in Moscow?

And what a coincidence that general Surovikin was released from home arresto, no?

My question is why were so many top brass from Wagner in the same aircraft? It seems like just asking for this to happen.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

One question.

If Pig had agreed to settle in Belarus, why he was in Moscow?

And what a coincidence that general Surovikin was released from home arresto, no?

Surovikin was officially fired the day Prig's plane was lost. I do not think that is coincidence.

Surovikin may well be dead already.

I think Prig was in Moscow trying to finagle African duties for Wagner in the hopes of keeping his money flowing. After all, Wagner has got gold-mining and logging interests there. I think that after two months, he thought he might still be too useful to discard. If so, he guessed wrong.

 

[manta22]

And more about Ukrainian pilots Stateside training; they will be trained by 162nd Wing

US Will Train Ukrainian Pilots, Maintainers on the F-16 at Air National Guard Base

The U.S. will train Ukrainian pilots on the F-16 fighter at Morris Air National Guard Base, Ariz., in October, the Pentagon announced.

www.airandspaceforces.com

Those F-16s fly right over my house on the way to & from the Goldwater Gunnery Range. This Tucson ANG unit trains many foreign pilots and it is a really good unit. My boss at Burr-Brown a long time ago was a field-grade officer there.

 

[Admiral Beez]

My question is why were so many top brass from Wagner in the same aircraft? It seems like just asking for this to happen.

By not killing him immediately, Putin gave Prig a fatal sense of invulnerability. The seemingly untouchable Wagner brass were probably raising a glass of Cristal to celebrate just as the Russian SAM approached.

 

[WARSPITER]

Good point. I'm no pilot, but this Fulcrum's seat looks like a dog's breakfast. Where exactly on this web of dials and knobs am I supposed to be focusing in order to optimize the aircraft whilst searching/tracking targets and avoiding CFIT?

View attachment 735217

This seems to me to be a good point when I compared it to the F16 layout below (don't know if that is the latest type but it gives a reasonable comparison).

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

By not killing him immediately, Putin gave Prig a fatal sense of invulnerability. The seemingly untouchable Wagner brass were probably raising a glass of Cristal to celebrate just as the Russian SAM approached.

Revenge is best served cold. Lull your opponent into complacency before you strike.

 

[GrauGeist]

Revenge is best served cold. Lull your opponent into complacency before you strike.

Which actually works both ways.

I suspect Putin's road ahead is going to be a bit rough.

 

[SaparotRob]

Revenge is best served cold. Lull your opponent into complacency before you strike.

"Just shoot him!"
Scott Evil

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Which actually works both ways.

I suspect Putin's road ahead is going to be a bit rough.

'
Given the immediate reaction to the killing of Prig, I think Russians already know this score. No one there trusts the government, right up to the top. They know it's shit.

Putin's road has been mined by, what's the word, samizdat, and word-of-mouth, well before. It's precisely why suspicion focused immediately on the government in this incident. They can smell the bullshit, they just don't feel capable to act against it.

For all we talk about how Russians accept totalitarians -- and they do! -- they also have, as a populace, a long history of sniffing out BS.

Put short, Putin ain't fooling anyone.

 

[GrauGeist]

"Just shoot him!"
Scott Evil

Sheriff of Nottingham: "I'll cut out your heart with a spoon!"
Guy of Gisborne: "why a spoon, cousin? Why not an axe?"
Sheriff of Nottingham: "because it's dull, you twit. It'll hurt more..."