"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (1 Viewer)

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

We also have the obligation to learn from it so that no other generation suffers again what those folk, the world over, suffered between 1937 and 1945.

 

[GrauGeist]

What clause? Did someone actually think it through way back when?

I'm not sure exactly, I just recall hearing something about Russia whining about being vilified and the other UN members carrying on about objections.

The UN is about as worthless as tits on a Nun.

 

[buffnut453]

Well, that sounds like deterrence to me.

You had written: "NATO was never meant to deter any attack anywhere in the world, nor even within Europe".

NATO was certainly intended to deter an attack against member nations, 10 of the original 12 being located in Europe.

Exactly...it was to defend the 10 member nations within Europe and the 2 nations outside of Europe. It was not to defend all the countries of Europe.

About the only wriggle room I can detect in the NATO charter relates to response to a humanitarian crisis. We can all see such events in Ukraine, and they're clearly having a destabilizing influence. Again, I think it would take UN endorsement before NATO took action using that angle.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Exactly...it was to defend the 10 member nations within Europe and the 2 nations outside of Europe. It was not to defend all the countries of Europe.

About the only wriggle room I can detect in the NATO charter relates to response to a humanitarian crisis. We can all see such events in Ukraine, and they're clearly having a destabilizing influence. Again, I think it would take UN endorsement before NATO took action using that angle.

My point is that you wrote that NATO was not about any deterrence anywhere, even in Europe. That's simply not correct, as you yourself have noted and cited. Their mission statement speaks directly to deterrence, and you acknowledged "It's about deterring attack against NATO members."

NATO came about for deterrence. That is why it was created. It wasn't worldwide deterrence, it doesn't extend to any non-NATO countries, but NATO would not have come about without the threat of the USSR pushing further westward. We both know this. It was put in place in order to deter Stalin's USSR from getting too high on the hog.

Of course NATO has shifted its outlook, but Article Five makes plain the point of the treaty.

 

[buffnut453]

My point is that you wrote that NATO was not about any deterrence anywhere, even in Europe. That's simply not correct, as you yourself have noted and cited. Their mission statement speaks directly to deterrence, and you acknowledged "It's about deterring attack against NATO members."

NATO came about for deterrence. That is why it was created. It wasn't worldwide deterrence, it doesn't extend to any non-NATO countries, but NATO would not have come about without the threat of the USSR pushing further westward. We both know this. It was put in place in order to deter Stalin's USSR from getting too high on the hog.

Of course NATO has shifted its outlook, but Article Five makes plain the point of the treaty.

Ok….what I wrote was not what I was thinking. My original statement should have read "all of Europe" rather than "within Europe". Mea culpa….although I'm disappointed that you can't read my mind.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Ok….what I wrote was not what I was thinking. My original statement should have read "all of Europe" rather than "within Europe". Mea culpa….although I'm disappointed that you can't read my mind.

lol, my ESP board is in the shop getting a chipset upgrade, so yeah. This is as much, if not more, me getting geeky as you not writing perfectly, so no tripping out here.

 

[hawkeye2an]

Watch out

 

[GrauGeist]

Слава Украйна !

 

[SaparotRob]

Exactly...it was to defend the 10 member nations within Europe and the 2 nations outside of Europe. It was not to defend all the countries of Europe.

About the only wriggle room I can detect in the NATO charter relates to response to a humanitarian crisis. We can all see such events in Ukraine, and they're clearly having a destabilizing influence. Again, I think it would take UN endorsement before NATO took action using that angle.

That was one of the issues brought up by that panel. "Hiding" behind Article 5 emboldened Putin. He invaded Georgia. No one did a thing. He invaded Crimea. That was easy. He responded to cries for assistance from Donbas and Luhansk apparatchiks. Got away with that too! All while working to undermine NATO unity and snagging a cool yacht and Chateau/Evil Supervillain Hideout. "Nyet! I will tell you what clubs you can and cannot join." he tells sovereign nations. And gets away with it. To Putin, any time he succeeds at rebuilding Imperial Russia, NATO has backed down, in his mind.
Humanitarian aid, aye there's the wriggle room. It was done in Bosnia with the involvement of both sides. Send an aid mission with Chinese and Indian observers (remind Eleven China isn't the only country in Asia). Will he shoot at several C-19s with appropriate NATO fighter escort that have international observers aboard? Let's see how Vlad reacts to provocation himself. I seem to recall there are gaps in Soviet air coverage from Military Aviation History's vid on the no fly zone. He might not really believe his own statements about having the might to take us down. Look at what it's costing him just to being able to not conquer Ukraine.

 

[GrauGeist]

That was one of the issues brought up by that panel. "Hiding" behind Article 5 emboldened Putin. He invaded Georgia. No one did a thing. He invaded Crimea. That was easy. He responded to cries for assistance from Donbas and Luhansk apparatchiks. Got away with that too! All while working to undermine NATO unity and snagging a cool yacht and Chateau/Evil Supervillain Hideout. "Nyet! I will tell you what clubs you can and cannot join." he tells sovereign nations. And gets away with it. To Putin, any time he succeeds at rebuilding Imperial Russia, NATO has backed down, in his mind.
Humanitarian aid, aye there's the wriggle room. It was done in Bosnia with the involvement of both sides. Send an aid mission with Chinese and Indian observers (remind Eleven China isn't the only country in Asia). Will he shoot at several C-19s with appropriate NATO fighter escort that have international observers aboard? Let's see how Vlad reacts to provocation himself. I seem to recall there are gaps in Soviet air coverage from Military Aviation History's vid on the no fly zone. He might not really believe his own statements about having the might to take us down. Look at what it's costing him just to being able to conquer Ukraine.

Now would be the time for Georgia to reclaim the land stolen and occupied from them in 2008.

Create a two front war to tax Putler's resources.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Now would be the time for Georgia to reclaim the land stolen and occupied from them in 2008.

Create a two front war to tax Putler's resources.

I'd pay cash money to watch his reaction if he got that news.

 

[SaparotRob]

I wonder if a referendum were held now in Crimea how it would go. Not just the two choices Putler gave them but a third choice; being reunited with their country, Ukraine.

 

[GrauGeist]

I'd pay cash money to watch his reaction if he got that news.

You 'n me both, brother.

 

[SaparotRob]

Oh yeah, there's a UN troop for every Ukrainian and Russian soldier during said referendum.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You 'n me both, brother.

You just know he'd be shitting bricks sideways.

 

[SaparotRob]

Now would be the time for Georgia to reclaim the land stolen and occupied from them in 2008.

Create a two front war to tax Putler's resources.

Perhaps when Mikhail's Navy sails by Turkey.

 

[GrauGeist]

I wonder if a referendum were held now in Crimea how it would go. Not just the two choices Putler gave them but a third choice; being reunited with their country, Ukraine.

At the time of the "Annexation" vote in 2014, the voter turn out was claimed to be over 70%, yet only 35% registered showed up.
Oddly enough, the line for "remain within Ukraine" didn't have a checkbox.

 

[GrauGeist]

Perhaps when Mikail's Navy sails by Turkey.

We've already seen how friendly the Georgian Navy is with the Russian Navy!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Now would be the time for Georgia to reclaim the land stolen and occupied from them in 2008.

Create a two front war to tax Putler's resources.

Putler

 

[GrauGeist]

Well, we have a nobody KGB officer who's weasled his way to the rank of Imperious Leader.
Same as an angry Imperial German Army Corporal who was just a messenger.

Therefore: Putler

And I hope the former's demise is the same as the latter's...