It's easy, you don't lead them as much…
"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (4 Viewers)
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It's easy, you don't lead them as much…
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
That's the ideal for forces on the ground. And how things should and are intended to operate.
Mitigate doesn't mean eliminate though. And mistakes happen. The fog or war is a real thing and bombs and missiles don't care what or who they hit. Rules can be inadequate, or get sidestepped or ignored.
In practice, the US air war in the Middle East has killed thousands of civilians, potentially tens of thousands. Per reporting from the New York Times in early 2022, the Pentagon's own data acknowledges 1,417 civilians have died in airstrikes in the campaign against ISIS in Iraq and Syria to the end of 2019, with a further 188 civilian deaths acknowledged in Afghanistan from US air operations since 2018.
That likely understates the extent of civilian deaths. Potentially to a massive degree.
A RAND study, mandated by the US Congress and released in early 2022, found that actual civilian casualties could literally be an order of magnitude higher than the figures officially released. For instance, the DoD's official figure for civilian casualties caused by US & Coalition operations in Syria in 2019 is 21. The lowest NGO assessment was 490 (a 23 times multiple), the highest was 1,118 (a 53 times multiple).
RAND also reported the US military's own analysis on post strike damage assessments conducted in 2010 found that these missed civilian casualties in 19 out of 21 cases. Because video/photo assessment had already been performed pre-and post strike and those had found no civilian casualties, any other claims of such were dismissed as 'not credible'.
The US military is generally satisfied that its own photos and video are 'credible', so when third party information comes up that contradicts this, in better than 50% of cases its just dismissed. From that RAND study: "When military sources showed no evidence of civilian casualties—often because they did not put forth sufficient effort to engage external sources—the U.S. military often used such findings as justification to conclude that reports of civilian casualties were not credible." In other words, if I refuse to see it, then it didn't happen
There is a problem. If there wasn't the US wouldn't be improving how it assesses, reports and mitigates civilian casualties.
This is an emotive issue, and I'm not accusing the US of a policy of deliberately targeting civilians. But it's clear that more could be done to both limit civilian casualties and to acknowledge them when they do actually occur.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The only way to eliminate collateral damage, is to eliminate warfare.
There is absolutely no way to prevent non-combatants from being caught in the crossfire, no matter how hard a military tries.
However, there is a big ass difference between injuring/killing civilians while engaging a legitimate target and intentionally targeting civilians in the street, children's hospitals, driving an AFV over a civilian in their automobile, executing bound civilians, shooting a little boy and his grandmother in a boat.
I honestly have no f**king idea how anyone can justify what Russia is doing to the Ukraine at the moment.
There is absolutely no way to prevent non-combatants from being caught in the crossfire, no matter how hard a military tries.
However, there is a big ass difference between injuring/killing civilians while engaging a legitimate target and intentionally targeting civilians in the street, children's hospitals, driving an AFV over a civilian in their automobile, executing bound civilians, shooting a little boy and his grandmother in a boat.
I honestly have no f**king idea how anyone can justify what Russia is doing to the Ukraine at the moment.
I never said mistakes do not happen. We however do not mow down and murder civilians as our friend is insinuating.
War is very murkey, believe me, I know. It's especially not easy when your enemy has even more disregard for human life. They place AA guns in school yards and strap bomb vests to children. Imagine how some 24 year old kid must feel who just blasted a poor kid walking at him with a bomb, or the pilot who has to engage that AA gun.
hawkeye2an
Staff Sergeant
Wars should be like real life Survivor. Our 10 best guys and your 10 best dropped at opposite ends of an Island. Whoever survives wins. I can Dream.
A Bucha couple said they were hunted by Russian soldiers because they had relatives in the Ukrainian army
"They didn't knock on the door, they immediately opened fire," one of the Bucha residents said in a video interview, per an off-camera translator.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Best?
Hell no - let the politicians fight for the people. These assholes start the wars and they were elected to represent the people, so let them do their job.
And I am not talking modern combat, eff no.
They will go into a large arena like the Roman Colliseum, armed only with edged weapons so they can look their adversary in the eye.
The rules are simple:
There is no quarter allowed - kill or be killed.
The last man/woman/whatever standing has won the war.
- Thread starter
- #3,830
Before they'll let that happen they'll resort to the nuclear option on a global scale. "If we're going down we're gonna take you with us!"
at6
1st Sergeant
It's time to find out how many of those countries voting in favor of Russia or abstaining receive U.S. aid and immediately cut off all funding to them. Let Russia and China give them International Welfare checks.
Admiral Beez
Captain
Interesting vid on NATO giving safe harbour to a Ukrainian fighter jet.
This is from 1998 and is fully compatible with NATO ammo rather than Russian 152 ammo. They'll have to get western ammo for it but that should be an even better artillery piece than the 2S3 Akatsiya. Perhaps the US can provide them with some M712 Copperhead rounds for it
Admiral Beez
Captain
I like it. I doubt Ukraine is buying them though. More likely Slovakia is otherwise compensated.Perhaps the US can provide them with some M712 Copperhead rounds for it
As the M712 is laser guided, does that require an aircraft, drone or man on the ground to light up the target? If that's the case perhaps the GPS guided M982 Excalibur is the better choice?
There's also this…
SMArt 155 - Wikipedia
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Jamoliva
Airman 1st Class
Major General Smedley Butler moment... War is a racket.
buffnut453
Captain
In case you all hadn't picked up on this, apparently Russia attacked a railway station in Kramatorsk. Over 30 people were killed but the tally may get much higher.
Over 9,000 people were evacuated through that station yesterday and there were apparently thousands of people at the location when the attack happened. This was the scene at the station on Tuesday:
Here are a few pics of the aftermath of the attack:
The last series are potentially the worst of all. According to Ukrainian authorities, this is a section of one of the weapons that hit the railway station. The inscription on the rear reads "For the children":
Now, I have to admit to being somewhat skeptical that the only substantial piece of weapon wreckage includes such an inflammatory message. However, if it's true, then it clearly demonstrates that Russia are deliberately targeting civilians. If it's a piece of Ukrainian propaganda, then I fear Kyiv may be overplaying their hand as it will cause all Ukrainian claims to be questioned. The very best thing Ukraine can do now is accurately report and document atrocities. There should be no need for amplification.
Over 9,000 people were evacuated through that station yesterday and there were apparently thousands of people at the location when the attack happened. This was the scene at the station on Tuesday:
Here are a few pics of the aftermath of the attack:
The last series are potentially the worst of all. According to Ukrainian authorities, this is a section of one of the weapons that hit the railway station. The inscription on the rear reads "For the children":
Now, I have to admit to being somewhat skeptical that the only substantial piece of weapon wreckage includes such an inflammatory message. However, if it's true, then it clearly demonstrates that Russia are deliberately targeting civilians. If it's a piece of Ukrainian propaganda, then I fear Kyiv may be overplaying their hand as it will cause all Ukrainian claims to be questioned. The very best thing Ukraine can do now is accurately report and document atrocities. There should be no need for amplification.
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Pink Floyd has recorded its first music in more than 30 years. "Hey, Hey, Rise Up" features vocals by Andriy Khlyvnyuk of the Ukrainian band, Boombox, who recorded himself in full military gear singing the folk song, "The Red Viburnum in the Meadow,"to the empty streets in Kyiv's Sofiyskaya Square.
