"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (9 Viewers)

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GrauGeist said:
You are interesting.

I post about Artical 19 of the Montreaux Convention and you go on about Maripol.

Ok, so I'll bite - under international maritime law, ANY ship (freighter, cargo or neutral warship) has the right, legally, to approach and dock at ANY Ukrainian port unmolested, as the Ukraine is a sovereign, internationally recognized nation, and offload anything they happen to be transporting.

Russia cannot object, interfere or attack as it would be seen as an act of aggression with consequences.

How it can help those in Maripol, I cannot say, since I don't own a shipping company and I am not a head of state (lucky for Putler) so I cannot directly come to Ukraine's aid.
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I saw in the thread the question as to what can be done to support the Ukrainians in Mariupol. (which I believe is of utmost importance in order to prevent the Russians from cutting off the Ukrainians) Then one chap brought in Airdrop supplies. next was, do the Ukrainians have such aircraft's
Then the issue of Article 19 came in - highlighting the possibility of ships being able to enter the Black-sea. But Mariupol isn't situated at the Black-Sea.

As for the difference of an e.g. USN vessel entering Ukrainian territory (harbor) or a C-5 loaded with goodies landing on Ukrainian territory - I will leave that up to you guys to
discuss.

Regards
Jagdflieger
 
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It isn't necessarily a matter of getting ships direct to Mariupol but one of getting literal shiploads of supplies to Ukraine rather than having to use only
land routes.

Even to get from the Med to Mariupol you have to go through the Bosporous and then traverse the Black Sea to get to the Sea of Azov. This makes
access under article 19 very important just as any losses of Russian vessels in that area are very important.
 
WARSPITER said:
It isn't necessarily a matter of getting ships direct to Mariupol but one of getting literal shiploads of supplies to Ukraine rather than having to use only
land routes.

Even to get from the Med to Mariupol you have to go through the Bosporous and then traverse the Black Sea to get to the Sea of Azov. This makes
access under article 19 very important just as any losses of Russian vessels in that area are very important.
Click to expand...
Who controls the Sea of Azov - respectively the Kerch strait? Turkey or Russia?
And holding Mariupol is off utmost strategic value - since it's capture would provide the Russians a continued offense towards establishing a land bridge towards the Crimea.

Shipping goods to Ukraine via Sea or land isn't the question to me - both routes have never been obstructed by Russia.

Regards
Jagdflieger
 
Jagdflieger said:
Who controls the Sea of Azov - respectively the Kerch strait? Turkey or Russia?
And holding Mariupol is off utmost strategic value - since it's capture would provide the Russians a continued offense towards establishing a land bridge towards the Crimea.

Shipping goods to Ukraine via Sea or land isn't the question to me - both routes have never been obstructed by Russia.

Regards
Jagdflieger
Click to expand...
As I already stated, the point is to be able to get supplies to Ukraine rather than direct to Mariupol. To do this you need to be able to gain access
through the Bosporous. The ability of Ukraine to continue to fight depends on being supplied.

That is the strategic necessity. There is no quick answer to this war and postulating the sending/not sending of anything direct to Mariupol is irrelevant
to the overall picture.
 
WARSPITER said:
Even to get from the Med to Mariupol you have to go through the Bosporous and then traverse the Black Sea to get to the Sea of Azov.
Click to expand...

Jagdflieger said:
Who controls the Sea of Azov - respectively the Kerch strait? Turkey or Russia?
Click to expand...
Looking at the map, I don't think any ship could reach Mariupol without violating what Putard considers Russian territorial waters. In fact I think he considers the Sea of Azov AND the entire Black Sea to be Russian Lakes. Sphere of influence, you know? If a US carrier task force entered the Black Sea acting independently of NATO, I'm sure he would feel entitled to sink it. That's rather a small "telephone booth" for a blue water fleet to be confined in.
 
XBe02Drvr said:
Looking at the map, I don't think any ship could reach Mariupol without violating what Putard considers Russian territorial waters. In fact I think he considers the Sea of Azov AND the entire Black Sea to be Russian Lakes. Sphere of influence, you know? If a US carrier task force entered the Black Sea acting independently of NATO, I'm sure he would feel entitled to sink it. That's rather a small "telephone booth" for a blue water fleet to be confined in.
Click to expand...
It's not about what he maybe considers. International maritime-law regulates the boundaries. As such the entire coastline of Western Turkey right up to Bulgaria, then Romania and last not least the Ukraine with its port at Odessa isn't Russian territory. But the access to the Azov Sea via the Kerch-Straits is 100% Russian controlled since his annexation of the Crimea. That
is one of the main reasons why he annexed Crimea - total control of the Azov Sea.

If Turkey allows passage or not to Russian military ships is independent of any freighter traveling to e.g. Romania or Odessa/Ukraine. So far I haven't hear that Putin attacked or threatened to attack merchant-vessels traveling that route. Especially not since all three, Turkey, Bulgaria and Romania are NATO members.
In case Putin would block access to Odessa - any NATO warship and merchantvessel is free to enter a Romanian port - and from there transport anything into neighboring Ukraine.

Turkey effectively blocked Russian navy ships from traveling through the Bosporus from the Black-Sea into the Aegean Sea and vice versa. Anything else hasn't changed.
However presently this all does not help the defenders at Mariupol or all the Ukrainian positions along the northern coast of the Azov Sea.

Regards
Jagdflieger
 
GrauGeist said:
Nope, a British Frigate, Japanese Carrier or U.S. destroyer can transit the straights without issue.
They are not involved in the war.

Only Russian and Ukrainian warships are restricted under the convention, as they are at war and only their ships, as registered as being home-ported in the Black Sea are allowed passage.
Any Russian warship home-ported in the Baltic, Pacific or Syria cannot pass.
Click to expand...

ARTICLE 14

The maximum aggregate tonnage of all foreign naval forces which may be in course of transit through the Straits shall not exceed 15,000 tons, except in the cases provided for in Article 11 and in Annex III to the present Convention. The forces specified in the preceding paragraph shall not, however, comprise more than nine vessels.


This limit applies to all non-Black Sea powers.

Note that WARSPITER WARSPITER specifically mentioned an American nuclear carrier, which ain't going to meet that limit, hence my caveat "that big".
 
Admiral Beez said:
It's the poor chaps surrounded and besieged in in Mariupol that need weapons and reinforcements. Some sort of parachute drop or delivery from the sea?

news.yahoo.com

Ukrainian troops in Mariupol are taking ammo off Russian soldiers and smuggling in weapons to hold out against the assault

There has been "continuous heavy shelling" in the port city since Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24.
news.yahoo.com news.yahoo.com
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There were several helicopter nights raids, supplies in, wounded out. One or two choppers were lost, with only two survivors (POW).
 
GrauGeist said:
Be it EU, UN or NATO ships - they have legal rights under international law, to not only transit into the Black Sea, but approach any port of the Ukraine.
Click to expand...
Turkey has banned all warships from all nations from entering the Black Sea.

Turkey warns all countries to not let warships go through the Turkish Straits


So, no, NATO or likeminded warships cannot sail to Mariupol. An UN or Red Cross mission could sail a civilian ship to Mariupol to rescue civilians, but it wouldn't bring weapons or reinforcements.
 
J_P_C said:
probably only 14 sailors survived Moskva sunk - for now 496 men are reported missing....
Click to expand...
I tried to obtain the information about surviving crew from Sevastopol. Rumours about 54 were saved by the Turkish vessel and an unspecified number by the Russian Navy. Very vague.
8 years earlier, before the occupation, such a major incident would be discussed in many web forums and chats, in cafes, on the benches of Primorsky Boulevard...
Now locals are just afraid to speak. And most of those web forums ceased to exist. Back in the USSR, my home town.
 
Dimlee said:
Click to expand...

Here's four for sale 1984 MiG 29UB in Utah for Sale-$4,500,000 And two more, 1986 MiG 29UB in Illinois for Sale-$3,500,000, though not sure if these civilian aircraft will help.

www.nbcnews.com

An American who owns a MiG-29 isn't sure the fighter jets would help Ukraine much

A billionaire astronaut who helped train U.S. fighter pilots loves his high-performance Soviet jet but thinks it's no match for Russia's newer planes.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com

The US needs to send all its own MiGs now, and offer Peru a security guarantee in exchange for their entire MiG fleet. We'll park a CVN off your coast if you need us to. In the immediate, the Polish MiGs must go today.
 
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Thumpalumpacus said:
ARTICLE 14

The maximum aggregate tonnage of all foreign naval forces which may be in course of transit through the Straits shall not exceed 15,000 tons, except in the cases provided for in Article 11 and in Annex III to the present Convention. The forces specified in the preceding paragraph shall not, however, comprise more than nine vessels.


This limit applies to all non-Black Sea powers.

Note that WARSPITER WARSPITER specifically mentioned an American nuclear carrier, which ain't going to meet that limit, hence my caveat "that big".
Click to expand...
Correct

As for merchant vessels (as some suggested that supplies need to be transported to Ukraine via ship) - not possible for Mariupol.
ARTICLE 4
In time of war, Turkey not being belligerent, merchant vessels, under any flag or with any kind of cargo, shall enjoy freedom of transit and navigation in the Straits subject to the provisions.

However as in any treaty or convention, there is always a loop hole. see:
ARTICLE 21
Should Turkey consider herself to be threatened with imminent danger of war she shall have the right to apply the provisions of Article 20 of the present Convention.
Meaning that NATO could send as much warship tonnage as to whatever Turkey agrees.

But anyway nothing changes the possibility of merchant ships transporting goods to Ukraine - or e.g. Romania

Regards
Jagdflieger
 
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Thumpalumpacus said:
ARTICLE 14

The maximum aggregate tonnage of all foreign naval forces which may be in course of transit through the Straits shall not exceed 15,000 tons, except in the cases provided for in Article 11 and in Annex III to the present Convention. The forces specified in the preceding paragraph shall not, however, comprise more than nine vessels.


This limit applies to all non-Black Sea powers.

Note that WARSPITER WARSPITER specifically mentioned an American nuclear carrier, which ain't going to meet that limit, hence my caveat "that big".
Click to expand...
Yes I was hoping rather than being realistic.
 
Dimlee said:
I tried to obtain the information about surviving crew from Sevastopol. Rumours about 54 were saved by the Turkish vessel and an unspecified number by the Russian Navy. Very vague.
8 years earlier, before the occupation, such a major incident would be discussed in many web forums and chats, in cafes, on the benches of Primorsky Boulevard...
Now locals are just afraid to speak. And most of those web forums ceased to exist. Back in the USSR, my home town.
Click to expand...
russians confirmed final number - 58 survived and 452 presumed dead including ship captain
 
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