"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (1 Viewer)

[Jagdflieger]

The Kremlin suggestion of targeting Poland comes as no surprise. As for Turkey,Tell them Finland and Sweden come in or they go out. Erdogan has never been a reliable partner and has way too close ties to Putin. Anyone believing that Turkey is reliable would stitch a penis to a sow and expect piglets.

Maybe you should enter the exclusive circle of Head of States

 

[GrauGeist]

Maybe you should enter the exclusive circle of Head of States

I'll be your huckleberry, but there's a boat-load of nations that would not like what I have to say...

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

As for Turkey,Tell them Finland and Sweden come in or they go out. Erdogan has never been a reliable partner and has way too close ties to Putin. Anyone believing that Turkey is reliable would stitch a penis to a sow and expect piglets.

There is no process for evicting a NATO member. None.

While I share your antipathy to Erdogan, NATO can't simply tell Turkey to get lost, because that is not written into the treaty anywhere. I've read opinions stating that NATO could de facto ignore Turkey, essentially ghosting the nation, but that still wouldn't result in a de jure expulsion, and wouldn't remove Turkey's veto power.

 

[GrauGeist]

Erdogan is playing a stupid game.

Aside from moving away from Attaturk's vision within his country, he's moving away from his nation's mission as a member of NATO.

 

[at6]

Maybe you should enter the exclusive circle of Head of States

Too many nations would hate my actions and they wouldn't want the ear full that they would get.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Erdogan is playing a stupid game.

Aside from moving away from Attaturk's vision within his country, he's moving away from his nation's mission as a member of NATO.

With elections coming up in a year, I suspect he's playing to a domestic audience. Strongmen gotta strong, and all that. "I told NATO to hammer sand, in order to save you from Kurds" will probably be a feature in his campaigning.

 

[at6]

It's a shame that there was no provision for eliminating a member that no longer met the criteria for membership. Failing to meet EU criteria tells you a lot about Erdogan and Turkey.

 

[at6]

With elections coming up in a year, I suspect he's playing to a domestic audience. Strongmen gotta strong, and all that. "I told NATO to hammer sand, in order to save you from Kurds" will probably be a feature in his campaigning.

You just know that he will "win by a landslide".

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

You just know that he will "win by a landslide".

Right, he's got his thumb on the spool in a lot of different ways, hence my comment upthread about NATO requiring members to be democratic. He's no devotee of democracy, the way I'm reading it.

He's getting ready to assail the Kurds -- American allies in the fight against ISIS -- as well. Far as I'm concerned, a long walk off'n a short pier would be called-for, but again, NATO has no way of expelling the nation.

 

[ThomasP]

re NATO expelling/suspending a member nation

The reasoning on the matter from NATO during its founding and from a bit later:

"Can Turkey be Expelled from NATO? It's Legally Possible, Whether or Not Politically Prudent"

This is a link to the NATO founding treaty (aka Washington Treaty) as initiated in 1949

"https://www.nato.int/nato_static_fl.../20161122_E1-founding-treaty-original-tre.pdf"


re Turkey and its behavior re its NATO obligations

Although I agree that what is going on with is disappointing, we have to take into account their prior relationship with Russia - at least to a fair degree. Their position relative to Russia is similar to Germany's in terms of economics and natural gas supply. And regardless of Turkey's commitment to NATO, Erdogan's first and primary responsibility is to the welfare of the people/nation of Turkey.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thanks for the link, T ThomasP . It' about bed-thirty here, so I can't read it tonight, but just wanted you to know your legwork is not unappreciated.

 

[Snautzer01]

You stated that Germany has send "nothing" in regards to military aid - a statement that is blatantly wrong.
There are two military sources in regards to providing aid to Ukraine
1. Direct supplies from e.g. Germany to Ukraine - which Germany has done and is doing.
2. NATO ring-exchange - e.g. Polish tanks (230 T-72M/M1R) to Ukraine - replaced(paid) for by Germany via supplying Poland with Leo II tanks.
As for 2. Germany has and is doing far more then the public knows or is aware off - NATO ring-exchange Germany's contribution/commitment has already exceed $2 Billion.
And aside from present negotiations with Greece and others all these NATO ring exchange weapons (entirely former Warsaw pact countries) have all arrived in Ukraine in the past month and weeks. Poland has agreed to send in total 60 Krab systems to Ukraine - again via NATO-ring exchange and again mostly covered by Germany and the UK.

Unfortunately there is disharmony right know between Poland and Germany due to Poland having send the tanks before details had been agreed onto by both parties.
E.g. Britain had agreed to replace Polish hardware with Challenger tanks - however so far they have only send Challenger tanks manned by British Army personal and being stationed
in Poland - not handed over any tank - somehow the media doesn't gang up on that issue but prefers to bash around onto Germany.

So is it just your personal misinformed opinion, or deriving from some "strange" source?

Duitsland verdeeld over wapenleveranties

Scholz verdedigde zondag met verve zijn besluit om nu toch zware wapens te leveren aan Oekraïne.

duitslandinstituut.nl

Waarom Duitsland geen zware wapens naar Oekraïne stuurt

Steeds meer Europese landen sturen zware wapens naar Oekraïne. Zo ook Nederland. Maar uit Duitsland blijft het stil. Het machtigste land van Europa zit met de kwestie in zijn maag. En dat heeft te maken met naweeën van de Tweede Wereldoorlog.

www.rtlnieuws.nl

Waar blijven de Duitse zware wapensystemen?

Er komt weinig terecht van Duitse beloften aan Oekraïne. Volgens Duitse media zijn er de afgelopen weken eerder minder wapens geleverd dan meer.

www.google.com

 

[Jagdflieger]

Duitsland verdeeld over wapenleveranties

Scholz verdedigde zondag met verve zijn besluit om nu toch zware wapens te leveren aan Oekraïne.

duitslandinstituut.nl

Waarom Duitsland geen zware wapens naar Oekraïne stuurt

Steeds meer Europese landen sturen zware wapens naar Oekraïne. Zo ook Nederland. Maar uit Duitsland blijft het stil. Het machtigste land van Europa zit met de kwestie in zijn maag. En dat heeft te maken met naweeën van de Tweede Wereldoorlog.

www.rtlnieuws.nl

Waar blijven de Duitse zware wapensystemen?

Er komt weinig terecht van Duitse beloften aan Oekraïne. Volgens Duitse media zijn er de afgelopen weken eerder minder wapens geleverd dan meer.

www.google.com

Okay it's in Dutch and both are opinionated articles in regards to Germany's position in regards to supplying heavy weapons (article April and May) towards Ukraine.
So basically already outdated and nowhere in these articles is it mentioned that Germany hasn't send any weapons to Ukraine.

Here is a partial overview: (actually common knowledge within the www)

• 2.500 Luftabwehrraketen
• 900 Panzerfäuste mit 3.000 Schuss Munition
• 2450 Panzerabwehrhandwaffen vom Typ RGW 90, auch "Matador" genannt
• 1600 DM22-Panzerabwehrrichtminen
• 3000 DM31-Panzerabwehrminen
• 100 Maschinengewehre
• 15 Bunkerfäuste mit 50 Raketen
• 100.000 Handgranaten
• 2.000 Minen
• 5.300 Sprengladungen
• 16 Millionen Schuss Munition
• Unbestimmte Anzahl an Drohnen
• Unbestimmte Anzahl an Fahrzeugen
• etc.

 

[Snautzer01]

but not the promised heavy stuff.

 

[Denniss]

but not the promised heavy stuff.

Please inform yourself. Most of the heavier stuff comes out of storage from the weapons industry which they now have to get servicable. AFAIR the Ukrainians are already training with the Panzerhaubitze 2000, possible on some Gepards too. Don't know if Leo 1s are sent/wanted.

 

[Snautzer01]

Please inform yourself. Most of the heavier stuff comes out of storage from the weapons industry which they now have to get servicable. AFAIR the Ukrainians are already training with the Panzerhaubitze 2000, possible on some Gepards too. Don't know if Leo 1s are sent/wanted.

Germany says it will send heavy weapons to Ukraine, after criticism for holding back in line with Putin's aims

Leaked documents revealed that Germany had hardly been sending any weapons to Ukraine. The next day, it made new commitments.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Dimlee]

​

Monty Python didn't foresee that:

Replica Reichstag stormed at Russian 'military Disneyland'

Defence minister among 5,000 spectators at Patriot Park for re-enactment of Red Army’s capture of Berlin landmark in 1945

www.theguardian.com

 

[Dimlee]

Ukraine's losses estimate by Zelensky.
"we're losing 60-100 soldiers per day as killed in action..."

Volodymyr Zelenskyy to Newsmax: We're the World's 'Defensive Perimeter'

Ukraine President Volodymyr Zelenskyy told Newsmax through a translator in an exclusive sit-down interview in Kyiv on Tuesday.

www.newsmax.com

So far, the KIA numbers remain classified. Zelensky mentioned approximate figures several times. Just off the top of my head: about 200 on the second day of the invasion, about 1,300 in the middle of March and about 3,000 in the middle of April.

Of all the services, only NGU (National Guard) reported their losses once on 11th May: KIA 501, WIA 1697. NGU is about 3 times smaller than the Army and does not participate in all operations.

 

[Jagdflieger]

but not the promised heavy stuff.

Come on enough of this nonsense.

Firstly you stated that Germany hasn't send any weapons - obviously you have been mistaken.
Now you bring in the promised heavy stuff: what promised heavy stuff isn't coming?

Ukraine had forwarded a $300 million weapons request to Germany in March, which included tanks. Off this request around $150 worth of weapons were supplied to Ukraine in March and April. So how many tanks do you think one can buy for 150 million? (around 50 T-72's or 7 Leo II A7) Therefore the UK and Germany brokered the deal with Poland to "immediately" supply Ukraine with 230 T-72 MBT's.

Then Germany to the great surprise of Ukraine proposed to send 50 Gepard's - End of March. Short off ammunition it took almost 7 weeks to settle this issue.
For your information a serviced and upgraded Gepard by KMW/Rheinmetall with spares and ammo costs around 3 million euro a piece.

End of April Germany informed Ukraine that they can deliver 11 PzH2000 from present NATO units (buying 4 from Netherlands and 7 coming from Germany)
From March to May, Germany making use of the NATO ring-exchange send numerous heavy stuff to Ukraine via Bulgarian, Slovakian and Czechia inventory incl. MBT, APC/AFV, artillery
and SAM systems.
And keep in mind that NATO only acquitted towards sending MLRS on 1st of June. Modern tanks from NATO inventory are still a taboo.
The 100 Leo 1A4 (build 1980) were dropped by Ukraine - luckily they understood the huge challenge to train, maintain and logistically make use of 100 totally outdated tanks.

The Ukrainians started training on the Gepard and PzH2000 from 9th respectively 16th of May onward.
So what promised heavy stuff did Germany not send, respectively agree to?

 

[Jerad]

Not much, but better than nothing.

WASHINGTON, June 1 (Reuters) - The Biden administration plans to sell Ukraine four MQ-1C Gray Eagle drones that can be armed with Hellfire missiles for battlefield use against Russia, three people familiar with the situation said.

EXCLUSIVE U.S. plans to sell armed drones to Ukraine in coming days -sources

The Biden administration plans to sell Ukraine four MQ-1C Gray Eagle drones that can be armed with Hellfire missiles for battlefield use against Russia, three people familiar with the situation said.

www.reuters.com