SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Winter will be harder on the Russian side, especially those on the wrong side of the Dnipro.
"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (5 Viewers)
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Thumpalumpacus
Major
Given their supply problems -- bad enough that the general in charge of that for the army has been relieved of duty -- I'm thinking that they're going to have problems staying warm: fuel for portable heaters, jackets and winter boots for the grunts, replacement parts for vehicles (because bad weather is hard on vehicles).
Admiral Beez
Major
I agree. The UAF's tanks, AFVs and IFVs will need to stick to the roads, but they won't get stuck in massive traffic jams for lack of fuel and organization like the Russians outside Kyiv. Instead smaller batches of UAF armour will rush the border roads, with drone-guided truck-mounted HIMARS hitting everything from well back.
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Admiral Beez
Major
They'll steal from the locals. As Hitler said, all of the enemy will starve before one of his own goes hungry.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Lots of side roads in the rural areas of Ukraine that have been maintained by the farmers which would be accessible and passable by military equipment.
In WWII, many of the same areas that are currently being contested, were poor peasant cooperatives, cultivated by hand or by horse with with virtually no infrastructure, so the Germans (and Red Army) were bogged down in impassable mud if they strayed from a major highway (and even then, it was sketchy).
In the current setting, if equipment strayed from any of the roads (major or otherwise) and tried to cut across a farm field or open terrain, then they'll most certainly bog down.
In WWII, many of the same areas that are currently being contested, were poor peasant cooperatives, cultivated by hand or by horse with with virtually no infrastructure, so the Germans (and Red Army) were bogged down in impassable mud if they strayed from a major highway (and even then, it was sketchy).
In the current setting, if equipment strayed from any of the roads (major or otherwise) and tried to cut across a farm field or open terrain, then they'll most certainly bog down.
Admiral Beez
Major
And better terrain for the UAF's T-72 tanks vs. heavy Abrams or Leo2s.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Relying on that for supply doesn't strike me as advisable. Ask Hitler about Jan 1942 and the retreat from Moscow.
To the point -- these 300,000 call-ups, are they getting winter gear? There's not much food growing in the fields in January, that's another thin reed. Does your equipment have adequate supplies of low-viscosity oil to enable reliable winter ops?
This is why the main point of my post was about logistics, and I only put up the pics of bogged vehicles later. There's a lot more to winter ops than mobility itself.
I think the Ukrainians will keep pushing forward, albeit more slowly, because they've got better motivation -- kith and kin needing to be freed. I hope and think that they're equipped for this sort of thing. I do wonder if the Russians haven't screwed this up as well.
Admiral Beez
Major
I have no doubt that Ukraine will have all the winter equipment and winter fighting kit/training they'll need.
Denmark To Provide Winter Gear To Ukraine Forces
During a meeting with Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky, Danish Foreign Minister Jeppe Kofod announced that Denmark would supply winter military uniforms for Ukrainian soldiers and agreed to help in the restoration of the Mykolaiv region damaged by Russian attacks. So far, more than 25,000...
worldcrunch.com
Aid earmarked for Ukraine includes cold weather gear
President Joe Biden approved another $600 million transfer of U.S. military assistance to Ukraine Sept. 15, 2022. Pentagon Press Secretary Air Force Brig. Ge
www.aerotechnews.com
NATO Calls for Winter Equipment for Ukrainian Soldiers
NATO has called on allied nations to provide military aid to the Ukrainian troops for the upcoming winter.
www.thedefensepost.com
Thumpalumpacus
Major
I have no doubt that Ukraine will have all the winter equipment and winter fighting kit/training they'll need.
Denmark To Provide Winter Gear To Ukraine Forces
During a meeting with Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky, Danish Foreign Minister Jeppe Kofod announced that Denmark would supply winter military uniforms for Ukrainian soldiers and agreed to help in the restoration of the Mykolaiv region damaged by Russian attacks. So far, more than 25,000...
Aid earmarked for Ukraine includes cold weather gear
President Joe Biden approved another $600 million transfer of U.S. military assistance to Ukraine Sept. 15, 2022. Pentagon Press Secretary Air Force Brig. Ge
NATO Calls for Winter Equipment for Ukrainian Soldiers
NATO has called on allied nations to provide military aid to the Ukrainian troops for the upcoming winter.
Right, I've read about a lot of non-lethal aid, including from Germany, is the form of uniforms, clothing, boots, etc. And it too is pretty damned important. I think you're right. Part of it has been the absolute incompetence of not just Russian logistics but their doctrine of logistics itself. In other words, it's not just a personnel failing, but it's that failing playing fire with a doctrinal neglect of supply, I think.
Admiral Beez
Major
Ukraine is going to rock this winter.
Here's how Russia wants us to see their winter preparedness.
Here's how Russia wants us to see their winter preparedness.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I'm wondering how these units shown are faring now.
Jabberwocky
Staff Sergeant
Depends on the ammunition being fired. And where it hits (even frontally). And what kind of T-72 it is.
Western powers APFSDS in service in the early 1980s** (third generation designs basically) were intended to be used against T-72A and early T-80 variants with early generations of ERA. Reportedly most of these could penetrate T-72A and early T-80s out past 2000m (penetration around 400mm of LOS RHA equivalent at this distance), some sources saying penetration possible at 4000m plus. These tanks were pretty much immune to 105mm HEAT rounds frontally though.
Problem comes with later T-72B, T-80B and T-80U (built from the mid-1980s). These had up-armoured turrets with different composite arrays and Kontakt-5 second generation ERA, which really added to the protection - some sources say roughly +20%, some say as much as +50%. Frontally, protection against APFSDS is estimated at anywhere from 550mm to 1000mm.
Fourth generation APFSDS (US M900 DU round, Israeli M426 and 429, bunch of European rounds) fielded from the late 1980s/early 1990s onward are supposed to perform better (and were designed with heavy ERA in mind). Penetration is reportedly as high as 570mm at 2000m. Rounds fielded in the early 2000s might even be better than that again.
What could they do against a modernised T-72BM/T-80U/T-80BV with Relik ERA? I really don't know. It's a question that will be answered on the battlefield.
**In 1981 or 1982s, Western ammo designers reportedly had a collective "Oh shit" moment when Russian tank testing data was 'acquired' and the generation of ammunition being just fielded was clearly not going to perform against the mid 1980s generations of Russian tanks. So there were lots of new ammo designs in the early to mid 1980s and performance claims get a little wild (stuff is STILL classified, so it's hard to work out). US came out with a couple of DU penetrators, the UK got very interested in super dense alloys all of a sudden and the Germans started shopping around everywhere.
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at6
1st Sergeant
Honeywell can't even make a decent thermostat. Can engines or parts be any better?
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Honeywell's engine division is part of Lycoming, so it's a different beast entirely.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
Russia urges public to provide warm clothes for soldiers in Donbas as winter approaches
According to Russian telegram channels, Russia is urging the public to provide soldiers in Donbas with warm clothes as winter begins to close in, as
euroweeklynews.com
- Thread starter
- #11,256
The news of Russia's soldiers in Donbas lacking warm clothes as winter approaches was reposted by the Head of the Donetsk People's Republic, Denis Pushilin.
Shades of 1941? "Winter clothing? It'll be over before snow fly." You'd think the Russians, of all people, would know better.
Shades of 1941? "Winter clothing? It'll be over before snow fly." You'd think the Russians, of all people, would know better.
Admiral Beez
Major
The Russians will steal whatever provisions and winter clothing they want from the locals.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Given that many will have been made refugees, that's -- again, since you ignored it the first time I wrote it-- a thin reed upon which to base plans. How much good food does an abandoned or destroyed house have? Better hope the fire didn't reach the closet.
If they do as you argue here, they're even dumber than I thought.
Not surprised at all about not being equipped for winter operations. The Russians never learn. I had Russian soldiers trying to trade me for my winter boots and buy them winter boots because they only summer issue in Kosovo.
Admiral Beez
Major
No one owes anyone their attention nor a reply. That said, I have not suggested that such theft will be effective, only that like most invaders they will try to live off the land through theft and pillaging, to the detriment of the locals.
