"All of Vlad's forces and all of Vlad's men, are out to put Humpty together again." (23 Viewers)

buffnut453 said:
I found this interesting. One of the common complaints about Ukraine is the historically rife corruption. Ironically, Russia's invasion may actually help Zelensky et al overcome the major drivers of that corruption, the Ukrainian oligarchs:

www.bbc.com

Russia's war drains Ukraine's rich list of power

Ukraine's billionaire oligarchs have lost money and influence because of the war.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
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I was thinking this as well. Russia's invasion has pushed Ukrainian's sense of national identity, and pushed Ukraine's exposure to how the West does things.
 
Thumpalumpacus said:
Right, but it took occupying those countries to force them to face their pasts, and even so, it's incomplete. Russia, on the other hand, has laws on the books forbidding honest discussion of this war. The change in leadership will have to be drastic, because any Putinite will likely enforce those laws.
Click to expand...

I think it took an unconditional surrender along with culture to make that change. In Germany, I think it was easier because of the culture. Most people in Germany are from a similar culture to the rest of the western world. It was easier to conform to a peaceful change and accept the wrongs and move forward to create a better future. Japan on the other hand did not have a true unconditional surrender. The emperor and govt. were by large allowed to remain as is and functioning. Today you still see a neglect of facing their past regarding the war.

That is why it is important that Ukraine does not simply cave into a peace settlement. Russia must clearly be defeated. Russia must answer for its crimes, just as Germany did in the early post-war period. I'm not sure how much of this will happen though.
 
I think it vital that Russia is defeated while Putin is still in power. If he passes before this war ends, it might encourage imperialists to view him as a martyr. His army must be crushed while Putler is still in charge. This war must be viewed as a defeat for Putin, not some lesser czar. He must be humiliated. Russia's economic woes must be inextricably linked to Vladolph. With that said, no one will be marching into Moscow with troops to kick down the door of the palace and remove the czar and convince Russia, Putin LOST.
I read of a British plan to execute Hitler but it was canceled because Sir Winston Churchill felt it necessary that Hitler take responsibility for the defeat and dire straights of Dem Deutsche Volk.
 
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Right, they must forestall any Russian "stab-in-the-back" myth, and demonstrate clearly to the Russian people that Putin's war was lost by main force.
 
SaparotRob said:
I think it vital that Russia is defeated while Putin is still in power. If he passes before this war ends, it might encourage imperialists to view him as a martyr. His army must be crushed while Putler is still in charge. This war must be viewed as a defeat for Putin, not some lesser czar. He must be humiliated. Russia's economic woes must be inextricably linked to Vladolph. With that said, no one will be marching into Moscow with troops to kick down the door of the palace and remove the czar and convince Russia, Putin LOST.
I read of a British plan to execute Hitler but it was canceled because Sir Winston Churchill felt it necessary that Hitler take responsibility for the defeat and dire straights of Dem Deutsche Volk.
Click to expand...

I agree completely. They must be defeated, and he must be deposed. There must also be some form of legit trial and repercussions.
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
I agree completely. They must be defeated, and he must be deposed. There must also be some form of legit trial and repercussions.
Click to expand...

Note: I am not thinking that Russia needs to be punished ala Germany and Versailles. We all know how that worked out. It needs to be just, while allowing Russia to reform, giving them the best chance to join the world community and grow in a positive manner.

Otherwise you are just kicking the can down the road and allowing myths and stabbed in the back feelings to grow. Also destroying them further economically will only further the hardship on the civilian population and hate will grow. See Germany, post WW1. I'm a firm believer that Versailles created the environment for the Nazis to come to power. WW2 was just a continuation of WW1 after a brief sieze fire.
 
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GrauGeist said:
Regarding corruption in Ukraine, there has been some real progress toward eliminating it and weeding out the key sources.

Here are some quick sources (yes, I know...wiki) but provides a solid timeline and overview:

Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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I knew some people who went there prior to 2014 to buy L39s and L39 engine parts, they spoke about the corruption
 
GrauGeist said:
Regarding corruption in Ukraine, there has been some real progress toward eliminating it and weeding out the key sources.

Here are some quick sources (yes, I know...wiki) but provides a solid timeline and overview:

Corruption in Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...

Somewhere in the bowels of this thread is a post about an annual index of corruption that lists countries from least to most corrupt. From 2014 to 2020, Ukraine made substantial strides, rising higher up that index list. It's still a work-in-progress but it's clear that Ukraine has been moving in the right direction for close to a decade now.

I get very frustrated with people who say the West shouldn't be helping Ukraine because of the nation's history of corruption. If Zelensky's leadership wasn't addressing corruption, then I'd be more accepting of those sentiments. However, progress has been, and continues to be, made. Unfortunately, it's a slow process. There's no magic wand that Zelensky can wave to instantly fix deep-rooted corruption challenges.

Withholding aid until Ukraine reaches some externally-defined measure of incorruption will simply leave the door open for Russia to achieve its objectives and dominate ever-larger swaths of Ukraine. It's not like the West doesn't have relationships with other less-than-ideal regimes...indeed, many Western regimes are, themselves, far from ideal.
 
buffnut453 said:
I get very frustrated with people who say the West shouldn't be helping Ukraine because of the nation's history of corruption. If Zelensky's leadership wasn't addressing corruption, then I'd be more accepting of those sentiments. However, progress has been, and continues to be, made. Unfortunately, it's a slow process. There's no magic wand that Zelensky can wave to instantly fix deep-rooted corruption challenges.
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Especially when many of those exact same people are corrupt (financially or morally or both) themselves ...
 
www.abc.net.au

Russia plans protracted drone campaign to 'exhaust' Ukraine, says Zelenskyy

Ukraine's president says it must "act and do everything so that the terrorists fail in their aim" as he accuses Russia of planning attacks with Iranian drones.
www.abc.net.au www.abc.net.au
 
buffnut453 said:
Somewhere in the bowels of this thread is a post about an annual index of corruption that lists countries from least to most corrupt. From 2014 to 2020, Ukraine made substantial strides, rising higher up that index list. It's still a work-in-progress but it's clear that Ukraine has been moving in the right direction for close to a decade now.

I get very frustrated with people who say the West shouldn't be helping Ukraine because of the nation's history of corruption. If Zelensky's leadership wasn't addressing corruption, then I'd be more accepting of those sentiments. However, progress has been, and continues to be, made. Unfortunately, it's a slow process. There's no magic wand that Zelensky can wave to instantly fix deep-rooted corruption challenges.

Withholding aid until Ukraine reaches some externally-defined measure of incorruption will simply leave the door open for Russia to achieve its objectives and dominate ever-larger swaths of Ukraine. It's not like the West doesn't have relationships with other less-than-ideal regimes...indeed, many Western regimes are, themselves, far from ideal.
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Agreed.

And one of the key issues with Russia invading Ukraine, is due to Ukraine's effort to oust Kremlin puppets and cracking down on corruption in both government and the private sector.

It must be working, since it got the Kremlin's panties in a bunch...
 
I am not optimistic for the Russia to change into something better in the future, regardless of how the war ends. It would be nice, but it would also have been nice if it had changed to something better since the collapse of the Soviet Union. We ought to prepare for the Russia to remain an enemy for the foreseeable future. Which for me means, supporting Ukraine to the best of our abilities to weaken it and ideally keeping the sanctions up.
 

Ukrainian army receives Swedish Bandvagn 202 all-terrain vehicles | Defense News January 2023 Global Security army industry | Defense Security global news industry army year 2023 | Archive News year

Ukrainian army receives Swedish Bandvagn 202 all-terrain vehicles
www.armyrecognition.com www.armyrecognition.com

received_Swedish_Bandvagn_202_all-terrain_vehicles.jpg
 
SaparotRob said:
That was quite a long (and depressing) article.
Click to expand...
True, but it does show considerable improvement as well as positive results.

Many former Soviet controlled nations suffered from rampant corruption, so the Ukrainian issue is not an isolated case. T seems that the closer to Russia a nation is, the more prolific the corruption.
 

View: https://twitter.com/Boba12340769066/status/1610015983418368000
 
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