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Admiral Beez said:
that's my point. Berlin needs to get over the WW2 guilt/shyness and help Ukraine with modern tanks, now.
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That's easy for a lil Canadian man to say.

Every day Germany is reminded of their war guilt. Hell my wife has been told to her face by an ignorant POS here in the US that she should pay for the sins of her country, even though her parents were not even born until after the war was over. Even Germany's neighbors France and Poland love to rub it in the modern German faces every chance they get.

Everyone seems to forget that the war in Europe was not that long ago. Canada and the US, fought gallantly and did their part to defeat the Nazi tyranny, but the War never came to the home front of the US and Canada like it did for the Germans (and the rest of Europe, Axis and Allies alike). The civilians never witnesses the horrors and lived it daily. It never experienced the hail of bombs falling on its cities. Children huddling in bomb shelters and bunkers. These horrors are still fresh in peoples minds. Not one household or family in Germany was not affected in some way. Not one did not lose some family member or friend. 3.6 million dead or missing soldiers. 635,000 dead civilians. And those numbers are conservative.

The war is still fresh in the minds of everyone there. Yes, Germany is solely to blame for WW2, but because of the horrors (something most Canadians did not witness) they have no desire to wage war anymore to the point its actually written into the post war German constitution. Something you seem to either not know or ignore. Can you actually blame them?

So yeah, I'll go there. Your conjecture is completely meaningless.

How about you get yourself on a plane and pick up a weapon? Do your part instead of complaining about others. Maybe you can drive one of those Leopard 2s you keep harping about. That or get off your emotional point the finger at Germany shtick. It's really getting old and tiresome.

Do I think Germany needs to do some more? Sure, but at least I get why they are slow to act.
 
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DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
So yeah….
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No one is asking Germany to fight. I have not read anything in the mainstream English media that suggests through helping to arm Ukraine, Germans are warmongering, jingoistic or forgetting their self-imposed guilt or their nation's past. Where has that been suggested outside of Germany itself or Russia-sympathetic media? Ukraine is on fire, and Germany has the fire extinguisher - do they let their neighbour burn because granddad was an arsonist?

At the end of the day, you get no credit and no blame for whatever your forefathers did. I'm a white, British born Canuck, my people pretty much invented black slavery, conducted genocide on indigenous peoples worldwide and wrought havoc across the globe. Heck, Britain has attacked Russia at least twice since my great grandparents (1854) and grandparents (1919) time. That's got SFA to do with me though.

What's perplexing about Germany is the inconsistency of their positions. On one hand, Germany is the fourth largest provider of weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. They're already committed to the fight. But then they get held up on tanks, until they don't. The US is just as bad, refusing tanks or weapons, only to allow them later on, so we must concede that. Unlike Germany, I sense the US is more about dithering than being concerned about repeating or celebrating history.
 
Admiral Beez said:
No one is asking Germany to fight. I have not read anything in the mainstream English media that suggests through helping to arm Ukraine, Germans are warmongering, jingoistic or forgetting their self-imposed guilt or their nation's past. Where has that been suggested outside of Germany itself or Russia-sympathetic media? Ukraine is on fire, and Germany has the fire extinguisher - do they let their neighbour burn because granddad was an arsonist?

At the end of the day, you get no credit and no blame for whatever your forefathers did. I'm a white, British born Canuck, my people pretty much invented black slavery, conducted genocide on indigenous peoples worldwide and wrought havoc across the globe. Heck, Britain has attacked Russia at least twice since my great grandparents (1854) and grandparents (1919) time. That's got SFA to do with me though.

What's perplexing about Germany is the inconsistency of their positions. On one hand, Germany is the fourth largest provider of weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. They're already committed to the fight. But then they get held up on tanks, until they don't. The US is just as bad, refusing tanks or weapons, only to allow them later on, so we must concede that. Unlike Germany, I sense the US is more about dithering than being concerned about repeating or celebrating history.
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Germany has a long-standing policy of not directly supporting offensive operations. Even in Afghanistan, they were there strictly for defensive and humanitarian reasons. Article 26 of the basic law directly forbids the Federal Republic from preparing or supporting or engaging in aggression. This by-the-way was pretty much a requirement put in place by the Western Allies if Germany wanted to be a legal country again after the war. It also guarantees the right to conscientious war objection. So yes, while no one is asking Germany to fight, this is why they are still very wary about supporting armed conflicts. Even the people do not want to support armed conflicts. They are very anti-war and see sending OFFENSIVE weapons to war as actively taking part in it.

That is why Germany is easy to send weapons that are more considered DEFENSIVE in nature such as Patriot Batteries, or anti-aircraft armored vehicles, but not OFFENSIVE such as main battle tanks. This all goes back to their wartime experiences and the constitution that came out since.

In the end, Germany will change, and it needs to. This will speed up. Germany has already approved increasing its military spending. Germany will send those tanks, but they will drag their feet for the reasons I have explained.
 
To be honest, any action Ukraine takes, whether it be offensive or defensive, is an overall defensive measure to expel the Russians back to their border.

*if* their forces were to cross into Russia proper, then that would be considered an offensive act.
 
Going back to the use of the Leopard 1 tanks. Whilst I absolutely agree with the comments made about it's poor protection (which was recognised back in the 70's) they are likely to have better optics, night fighting and fire control systems than most of the Russian tanks. In a situation where the first shot has a good chance of killing or at least disabling the enemy they will have a use, and an advantage.
The biggest problem will be the vulnerability to infantry AT weapons. A Russian equivalent to a Carl Gustav would be a serious problem.

It will all depend on the version they get as there were a lot of differences.
 
'Do I think Germany needs to do some more? Sure, but at least I get why they are slow to act.' - This is 100% correct. The victorious powers spent decades postwar engaged in exorcising any hint of Prussian-style militarism from the German psyche - out of a fear of a possible Great Unpleasantness Part III. These efforts were wildly successful - any hint of anything that could possibly be construed as adventurism was met with serious navel-gazing and legitimate soul-searching within the BRD. And that's what the rest of the West (and the Russians, of course) wanted - a stable, predictable Germany. It is unreasonable and unfair to expect Germany to discard 80 years of postwar moulding, and jump at the chance to unleash the panzers to roll east .... again. Germany has a...complicated history - particularly with regard to Russia (which, of course Russia exploits endlessly).

Like many others I would like to see Ukraine supplied with all the weapons it needs to eject the invading forces and secure its borders - it is vital to the world order that Russia's aggression fails in a definitive, undeniable fashion. It is frustrating that this is not an instantaneous process - but it is unavoidable

Anyway, that's my 2 cents....
 
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GrauGeist said:
To be honest, any action Ukraine takes, whether it be offensive or defensive, is an overall defensive measure to expel the Russians back to their border.

*if* their forces were to cross into Russia proper, then that would be considered an offensive act.
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I agree, and that is how I think Germany should look at it as well.

Another aspect that is slowing Germany down (and I believe the US as well) is still the knowledge that regardless of how poorly the Russian army is equipped and fighting, they still have a lot of nuclear weapons. Germany especially is likely concerned about this being that they are well within striking range of even smaller tactical nukes.
 
Warspite63 said:
'Do I think Germany needs to do some more? Sure, but at least I get why they are slow to act.' - This is 100% correct. The victorious powers spent decades postwar engaged in exorcising any hint of Prussian-style militarism from the German psyche - out of a fear of a possible Great Unpleasantness Part III. Theses efforts were wildly successful - any hint of anyone that could possibly be construed as adventurism was met with serious navel-gazing and legitimate soul-searching within the BRD. And that's what the rest of the West (and the Russians, of course) wanted - a stable, predictable Germany. It is unreasonable and unfair to expect Germany to discard 80 years of postwar moulding, and jump at the chance to unleash the panzers to roll east .... again. Germany has a...complicated history - particularly with regard to Russia (which, of course Russia exploits endlessly).

Like many others I would like to see Ukraine supplied with all the weapons it needs to eject the invading forces and secure its borders - it is vital to the world order that Russia's aggression fails in a definitive, undeniable fashion. It is frustrating that this is not an instantaneous process - but it is unavoidable

Anyway, that's my 2 cents....
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Exactly, and well said. And yes, right now it is very frustrating. I can get that, but as you said is unavoidable, but it should also be predictable.
 
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
In the end, Germany will change, and it needs to. This will speed up.
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Good info and POV, thanks. With such a defensive posture I wonder if the Bundeswehr, as the backbone of NATO's ground forces in the 1970-80s would have been able to go on the offensive if the invading Red Army broke, or would they have just stopped at the Polish border? The one Axis power doing a big turnaround towards vast military capability is Japan. Meanwhile Italy, the third main Axis power gets a free pass on their aggressions. That doesn't seem fair.
 
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