Alternative German Fighters: Me-209, Me-309, He-100, etc.

[CharlesBronson]

Well, honestly I think that the massive 1 ton, 44 liter DB-603 is too much for the He-100.

The fine 36 valve, 35 liter, and 700 kg Jumo 213E would be better suitted and it offered the same amount of power of the DB-603A.

 

[CharlesBronson]

 

[Soren]

According to my sources the DB-603 weighed 910kg, while the Jumo 213E weighed 920kg. An even better engine than these two would have been the DB-605 which only weighed in at 753kg and could produce 2,000 HP, thats a power to weight ratio of 2.65hp/kg !

DB-605

 

[KraziKanuK]

It depends on whether that is 'dry' or 'wet' weight.

The DB605 weight varied from 700kg to 770kg, depending on the model.
http://mitglied.lycos.de/luftwaffe1/aircraft/lw/DB605_varianten.pdf

A spec sheet for the DB603A-F gives a weight of 825kg +3%. Another spec sheet for the DB603E gives a weight of 910kg +3% and for the DB603F 990kg +3% .

Can someone translate > vergleichsgewicht

In Hermann's 152 book:
213A - 1805kg
213E - 1909kg
603C - 1832kg

I think this means installed weight. German text is: triebwerk (vergroB. behalter) {sorry accents left off}

 

[CharlesBronson]

1 Metric ton = 1000 kg.

1000-910= 90 kg, the hell with the difference.

I going to check with my sources for the Jumo I honestly think that is lighter.

even better engine than these two would have been the DB-605 which only weighed in at 753kg and could produce 2,000 HP, thats a power to weight ratio of 2.65hp/kg

Yes the He-100 was designed "around" the Daimler Benz engine, but the Messerschmitt demand for the DB-601, 601E and 605A,B,C made it impracticable.

 

[Henk]

Hi my name is Henk.

I personaly love the work of the Horten's and the showed that the flying wings are a great thing to use as a combat aircraft.

Now the Horten 229 is sitting in the NASM and plans to restore it will take seven years and meanwile it is just sitting there. It is the only one left of its tipe in the world.

The pictures you have posted is great and I will post pictures of the Horten 229 Vf1, V2 and V3 prototypes that I have.

Henk

 

[Gnomey]

Welcome to the forum Henk.

 

[evangilder]

Welcome aboard, Henk.

 

[Twitch]

Henk the 229, yeah, hehehe! I'm looking forward to seeing it restored.

Charles Bronson- The Me 209 is perhaps a viable layout for a decent fighter evolved from the 109. As long as the landing gear is wide stance too! The more I look at it the more logical it looks.

 

[Henk]

Thanks guys.

Twitch I had to start somewhere

KraziKanuK siad that the DB605 weight varied from 700kg to 770kg, depending on the model and the A spec sheet for the DB603A-F gives a weight of 825kg +3%. Another spec sheet for the DB603E gives a weight of 910kg +3% and for the DB603F 990kg +3% .

The DB 605 weight from 756kg and up and the part about the DB 603 is tru. This is according to Jane's fighting aircraft of WW2.

Henk

 

[CharlesBronson]

The one shown here is the Me209H V1. It
was powered by a 2,000 horsepower DB627 engined. It was
rated for 460mph at altitude. It was delayed by allied bombing
and was cancelled when complete in 1944.

 

[Henk]

It looks very much like the Me-109 just with a longer nose. Was it better than the ME-109? Do have any pictures of a prototype.

Henk

 

[CharlesBronson]

There is a pic in this topic, there is no much photo material of this particular plane. This is the V-5 ( A-1) version.

 

[Henk]

The nose looks quite like the FW-190 and the Ta-152 fighter. I would profer the Ta-152 and the FW-190 any day or even the Dornier 335.

Now why did it not reach producktion? All that Jane's say is that it never reached production and was not build in grate quantity. I think it was a waste to go on with prop aircraft when you have the tchnology to build fast jet aircraft.

Henk

 

[CharlesBronson]

It was in the competition for a high altitude Fighter that began in Mid-1942 but the continuos delay of the Messerschmitt work because the large amount of work done by this factory cause that the Me-209 were relegated to low pririty.

In 1943 the RLM want a "Schnellosung" or quick solution heavy altitude fighter , the result: the Me-209H and A-1 but both were defeated by the Fw-190D-9 and eventually the Ta-152.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I would have liked to have seen how the Bf-209 and the Bf-309 would have turned out. The Bf-209 was turned down because of lackluster performance correct?

 

[CharlesBronson]

The performance for "normal" ( not especialized Höhenjager) fighter wanst that bad, 715 km/h max speed and 1040 m/min initial climb. But the lack of DB-603LA ( high altitude version of the heavy Benz engine) the divertion of technics crew to the completely useless P.1091 and Me-155 proyects, and the fact that the Fw-190D was available to be introduced early.

Anyway with the normal 1750 hp DB-603A-1 or the 1900 hp DB-603G wich was used In the Messers Me-410s the 209A-1 could be natural the replacement for the 109, Fast as the K series but with better climbing performance , better turning performance at high altitude and heavier canon and MG armament.

But just think how much designs were making and manufacturing Willy Messerschmitt in that time (mid -1943):

Me-109G
Me-209
Me-262 prototipes
Me-264 Prototipe.
Me-309 prototipes
Me-110G
Me-210
Me-410
Proyect Me-310
Proyect Me-155A and B.
Proyect P.1091
Me-163 prototipes
Me-263 prototipes
Me-328 proyect........quiet a lot work to be done...isnt

 

[Twitch]

And production actually increased despite the American heavy bombers in daytime after the facilities were dispersed.

 

[CharlesBronson]

The FW-Ta-153:

This was the answer of Focke-wulf to the RLM request for high speed Begleitjäger( escort fighter) in competition with the Me-209A-1.

This aircraft ( FW-190V-17U1) had a DB-603A of 1750hp, a max speed of 680 km/h and 1040 m/min initial climb.
The range was 750 km. Neither this or the Me-209 fullfilled the RLM requeriments but were used as a base designs for high altitude interceptors.

 

[Henk]

Fw loved to use BMW engines on their fighters even with the radical BMW engine used in the Fw-190 and Ta-152?

Correct me if I am wrong.

Henk