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- #321
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
A interesting desing, Ta-152 with laminar flown wing and a radial engine.
Alternative German Fighters: Me-209, Me-309, He-100, etc.
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the lancaster kicks ass
Major General
- 19,937
- Dec 20, 2003
that's from the Luftwaffe secret projects series of books? a fantastic read for anyone that's not seen them.....
- Thread starter
- #323
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Yes it is, sorry I forgot to put the source.
Lt. Mereel
Airman
I remember that jet, Didnt the germans add another cockpit at the back....Tail gunner?
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- #325
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Wich jet are you talking about ?
Those are great books up there. I own the whole series. Excellent books!
I don't tink Kurt Tank would have put a laminer flow wing on the 222 engined 152. He had to patiently explain to Goring after he found out the P-51 had laminer flow wings, why all German aircraft didn't have one because of the performance lost if even a few bugs got squashed on the leading edge
More of an alternative to Me 110. But what about the Focke Wulf 187 falke. 50mph faster than the 109B when built. Perhaps superiour climb/dive rates and twice the the range(would have been usefull during the BOB). Also more forgiving to the pilot trying to land it. I think 45% of all written off 109's was due to take off/landing.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Kurt Tank was correct. The Mustang wing was never a "laminer" flow wing. This is very difficult to achieve and several experimental aircraft was used to study it. Some were successful but not economical. Still the Mustang wing was a low drag wing which allowed for a very clean aircraft and high speed.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
In 1940, the Bf-109E was capable of 357 mph, the Bf-110C was capable of 335 mph, and the Fw 187A-0 was capable of 326 mph, somewhat slower but could climb much better than the Bf-110C.
Classic Military Warnings
"Any ship can be a minesweeper...once." Anon Naval Brass
I was comparing the Fw 187 to the 109 in 1937. Perhaps by 1940 it too would have seen significant improvement in performance.
Focke-Wulf 187 archive file
It seems that the Fw 187 was much faster than a bf 109 with the same powerplant
johnbr
2nd Lieutenant
The Focke-Wulf 187 would have been great with the db 601 or db605.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
The A-0 was the 1940 version of the Fw 187.
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Totally agree! It was also rather easy to build (though not as much as the Bf 109). Milch was one of the main advocates for taking the G.55/56 in production but the surrender of Italy ended those plans. A pity because I don't think that the Italian capitulation should have changed those plans.
Perhaps the Re.2006 would have been an even better interceptor (though not as easy to build as the G.56).
Another alternative was the old He 100. Although I think it was a good decision not to take the Bf 109 out of production in favour of the He 100, I think it would have been an excellent interceptor as late as 1944 (with the DB 605).
The Fw 187 is not an alternative because too expensive though I am interested in the Bf 109Z as a fast Zerstörer, Aufklärer and Jabo.
Kris
- Thread starter
- #337
CharlesBronson
Senior Master Sergeant
Actually there was some Italian Fighters in use with the Luftwaffe, the JG 77 used some Macchis Mc-205 for a four months period in 1944. The Veltro and the Centauro were both superb designs. probably better than the Bf-109G2/4/6.
And how it was so expensive ?
Civettone
Tech Sergeant
Two engines versus one (in the Bf 109).
I'm sure you've read this many times before, but I just love to bring this up time and time again
In December 1942 a technical commission of the Regia Aeronautica was invited by Luftwaffe to test some German aircrafts in Rechlin. The visit was part of a joint plan for the standardization of the Axis aircraft production. In the same time some Luftwaffe officers visited Guidonia where they were particularly interested in the performances promised by the Serie 5's. On December 9 these impressions were discussed in a Luftwaffe staff meeting and rised the interest of Goering itself.
In February 1943 a German test commission was sent in Italy to evaluate the new Italian fighters. The commission was led by Oberst Petersen and was formed by Luftwaffe officiers and pilots nad by technical personnel, among them the Flugbaumeister Malz. The Germans carried with them also several aircrafts included a Fw190A and a Me109G for direct comparison tests in simulated dogfights.
The tests began February 20. The German commission, not without a certain surprise, was very impressed by the Italian aircrafts, the G55 in particular. In general, all the Serie 5's were very good at low altitudes, but the G55 was competitive with its German opponents also in term of speed and climb rate at high altitudes still maintaining superior handling characteristics. The definitive evaluation by the German commission was "excellent" for the G55, "good" for the Re2005 and "average" for the MC205*. Oberst Petersen defined the G55 "the best fighter in the Axis" and immediately telegraphed his impressions to Goering. After listening the recommendations of Petersen, Milch and Galland, a meeting held by Goering on February 22 voted to produce the G55 in Germany.
The interest of the Germans, apart from the good test results, derived also from the development possibilities they was able to see in the G55 and in the Re2005. For the Re2005 the German interest resulted in the provision of an original DB605 with the new WM injection. This engine and a VDM propeller were installed on the MM495 prototype that was acquired by Luftwaffe and tested in Rechlin. The aircraft reached 700 km/h during a test with a German pilot, but the airframe was not judged sufficiently strong for these performances.
The G55 was bigger and heavier and was considered a very good candidate for the new DB603 engine. Other visits were organized in Germany during March and May 1943 in Rechlin and Berlin. The G55 was again tested at Rechlin at the presence of Milch. Gabrielli and other FIAT personalities were invited to visit German factories and to discuss the evolution of the aircraft. The specifications of the German G55/II included the DB603 engine, five 20 mm guns and a pressurized cockpit. The suggestion of weapons in the wings, limited to one 20 mm gun for each wing, originated the final configuration of the Serie I, while the 603 engine was succesfully installed in the G56 prototypes.
As a concrete results of the German interest in the G55, the Luftwaffe acquired three complete G55 Sottoserie 0 airframes (MM91064-65-66) for evaluations and experiments giving in change three DB603 engines and original machinery for the setup of other production lines of the DB605/RA1050 RC58 I. Two of the Luftwaffe G55's remained in Turin, at the Aeritalia plants, where they were used by German and Italian engineers to study the planned modifications and the possible optimizations to the production process. Later these two were converted to Serie I and delivered to the ANR. The third one was transferred to Rechlin for tests and experiments in Germany. The DB603 engines were used to build the G56 prototypes.
The interest in the G55 program was still high after the Armistice: in October 1943 Kurt Tank, who previously personally tested a G55 in Rechlin, was in Turin to discuss about the G55 production. However, war events and the not yet optimized production process were the reasons for which the G55 program was eventually abandoned by the Luftwaffe. Early produced G55's required about 15000 manhours; while there were estimations to reduce the effort to about 9000 manhours, the German factories were able to assemble a Bf109 in only 5000 manhours."
(* I must note that this was probably the MC.205V, which had the old wings of the C.202 which made it less suited for high altitudes.)
Kris
Parmigiano
Senior Airman
"(* I must note that this was probably the MC.205V, which had the old wings of the C.202 which made it less suited for high altitudes.)"
Correct, the 205 tested was for sure a 205V, being the 'real' 205 (205N) limited to 2 prototypes (MM 499 and 500)
The 205V was a 'stopgap solution', being a 202 airframe matched to a DB605, with some modification in the wing structure to accomodate the MG151/20 in place of the 7.7. The MG151 was fitted in series III.
The 205N was instead a new design, featuring larger and redesigned wings, fuselage accomodation for a 'motoren kanone' and so on.
The only difference in the prototypes was the armament (and of course related weight) SN 499 was fitted with 1xMG151 engine mounted, 2xSAFAT 12.7 in the cowlings and 2xSAFAT 12.7 in the wings, MM500 replaced the wing SAFAT with MG151/20.
The next design was the MC206 and 207, with a further enhanced airframe designed for the DB 603. The MC206 was a 'transition design' planned for a DB605 in the new airframe, while the 207 should have had the DB 603.
Armament options were like the 205N MM500 or in alternative 4xMG151/20 wing mounted (tempest style)
The MC 206 prototype was damaged by bombers when it as 2 weeks fro completion, the following armistice blocked any further work on the design.
Correct, the 205 tested was for sure a 205V, being the 'real' 205 (205N) limited to 2 prototypes (MM 499 and 500)
The 205V was a 'stopgap solution', being a 202 airframe matched to a DB605, with some modification in the wing structure to accomodate the MG151/20 in place of the 7.7. The MG151 was fitted in series III.
The 205N was instead a new design, featuring larger and redesigned wings, fuselage accomodation for a 'motoren kanone' and so on.
The only difference in the prototypes was the armament (and of course related weight) SN 499 was fitted with 1xMG151 engine mounted, 2xSAFAT 12.7 in the cowlings and 2xSAFAT 12.7 in the wings, MM500 replaced the wing SAFAT with MG151/20.
The next design was the MC206 and 207, with a further enhanced airframe designed for the DB 603. The MC206 was a 'transition design' planned for a DB605 in the new airframe, while the 207 should have had the DB 603.
Armament options were like the 205N MM500 or in alternative 4xMG151/20 wing mounted (tempest style)
The MC 206 prototype was damaged by bombers when it as 2 weeks fro completion, the following armistice blocked any further work on the design.
