Every human activity is improved with practice, there is no doubt more practice would have improved things but a lack of foresight and practice is not evidence of a criminal conspiracy. In 1944 the USAAF was sending out raids of 1000 bombers plus escorts from UK. They didnt have 1000 bombers in USA or any escorts in 1941. Germany declared war on the USA and the US responded there is only so long that any military force can say to their leader "we are not ready yet, just another few months practice"
Another 'Gem' from Greg - just released.
- Thread starter drgondog
- Start date
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What that map shows and represents is a huge effort on the ground just for form up.Every 8th AF Bomb Group had it own designated form up area where the various Group boxes could form up before departing for the target area, when Groups would form into Wings and Divisions
View attachment 766214
Form up was aided by multi-coloured unarmed formation ships like these.
Assembly Ships of the Eighth Air Force | Classic Warbirds
Introduced during 1943 these brightly painted aircraft were used to help B-17s and B-24s get into formation safely. Includes images of 6 aircraft.www.classicwarbirds.co.uk
PlanesandShips
Airman
- 21
- Feb 25, 2024
Congratulations on your experience flying around EU, and thanks for not banning me in spite of multiple negative comments. I've agreed weather doesn't need to be a TS/TRW to cause problems.
It was claimed to be figured out. (This is the part where I'm supposed to quote a report showing that the USAAF promised victory, in spite of constant and unending propaganda about air power since, well, Billy Mitchell) I'm sure one or two very detail oriented persons on here can recount production of the German war ministry going up until very late. The bottom line to me is that strategic bombing did not bring victory over Nazi Germany, it may have contributed to it, but IMHO not in a significant enough amount to justify the expense, and especially, the loss of life. The pickle barrel, the controllable mistakes, the missions where ~30-35% of the force was lost, there are massive errors all around staring us in the face. But then again, I'm a person who believes that the USSR would have completely over-run Nazi Germany if we had never invaded Western Europe. IMHO we invaded Europe to keep the USSR from taking all of Europe, not to fight the Nazis.
Challenging someone's assertions is not bad. But when seem to challenge the very person, when every single sentence is dissected, instead of the overall theme, it just seems a little over the top. Combined with accusations of trolling, of being another person ("I'm not Greg!," PandS said again and again!), introduction of talks of bans.....well, its not a very friendly place. I was perplexed by some of the first responses to my posts, the coded signals between core members which seemed to be saying, "here is another one.....lets take him down....." when they really didn't even explain what their shorthand messages to one another meant. Agreement between them was enough. "An ignorant newbie must be crushed, we're up for the challenge. Maybe its really Greg! Let's hang a few open ended questions out there to try and draw him out."
I refuse to say if I've ever flown around Europe as a crew or passenger or any other role in any military or airline. The arguments shouldn't count on professional qualifications (another coded message around here between participants). The arguments should rise or fall on their own merits. And one doesn't have to get down to the horseshoe nail to know that the battle or the war was lost.
I have learned quite a bit here, and I am still intending to pull back and just listen and read more. Apparently there are thousands of other pages that one must read in order to post intelligently, so said the core members, so will it be done. But you asked.
bloody hell, i cant tell if your paranoid or not paranoid enough !
what the hell are you going on about with coded signals, really ?
no member advocated banning you, i said why should you be banned or your posts deleted, just because you have a different opinion,.
yes i was posting about you, the guy who i was defending from another member who does think you were trolling.
but i am now getting irritated at the snide comments and jibes in your replies, so please stop them.
what the hell are you going on about with coded signals, really ?
no member advocated banning you, i said why should you be banned or your posts deleted, just because you have a different opinion,.
yes i was posting about you, the guy who i was defending from another member who does think you were trolling.
but i am now getting irritated at the snide comments and jibes in your replies, so please stop them.
Yeah, I'm not even going to respond anymore. The thinly vailed rude jibes are rather annoying after we literally just spent two pages defending him. I'm done.
PlanesandShips
Airman
- 21
- Feb 25, 2024
I appreciate the open minded-ness of the mods very much. If it were not so, I would be gone already. Thanks for those two pages, I appreciate the commitment to open debate and acceptance of differing opinions of non experts.
fubar57
General
I wouldn't call drgondog a non expert. Among others..... James William Marshall: books, biography, latest update
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PlanesandShips
Airman
- 21
- Feb 25, 2024
I was referring to myself.
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P
PlanesandShips
Your first post contained this
1 The P-47 didnt need drop tanks because it could fly to Schweinfurt and back without them
2 The P-47 could have had drop tanks but homicidal fruitcakes in an un named mafia chose to not use them.
3 The P-47 could have used an unapproved unsafe ferry tank and cruise below the bomber formation into enemy airspace then climb up to bombers when fuel was used up. In short the bombers could have escorted the fighters.
4 The P-47 always had the internal and external fuel needed because by smoke and mirrors the longer range models were always available, even in 1943. He obviously never says when it did become available just "later" in fact so late all decisions had been made.
Lets assume Greg isnt right or wrong, all of those theories cannot be correct, so which do you agree with, sinnce you say you agree with him?
Greg is obviously wrong because Greg does not have one theory he has many. You agree with Greg, so which theory on P-47 range do you agree with?
1 The P-47 didnt need drop tanks because it could fly to Schweinfurt and back without them
2 The P-47 could have had drop tanks but homicidal fruitcakes in an un named mafia chose to not use them.
3 The P-47 could have used an unapproved unsafe ferry tank and cruise below the bomber formation into enemy airspace then climb up to bombers when fuel was used up. In short the bombers could have escorted the fighters.
4 The P-47 always had the internal and external fuel needed because by smoke and mirrors the longer range models were always available, even in 1943. He obviously never says when it did become available just "later" in fact so late all decisions had been made.
Lets assume Greg isnt right or wrong, all of those theories cannot be correct, so which do you agree with, sinnce you say you agree with him?
PlanesandShips
Airman
- 21
- Feb 25, 2024
I don't think I said I agreed with him. I believe I said that he made some good points.
Gosh, I'm loathe to even use the word, but even Wikipedia has an entry on the bomber mafia, and that entry lists some of the main members. Interestingly, Wiki quotes Haywood Hansell as having said, "It was recognized that fighter escort was inherently desirable, but no one could quite conceive how a small fighter could have the range of the bomber yet retain its combat maneuverability. Failure to see this issue through proved one of the Air Corps Tactical School's major shortcoming." We could dissect this statement ad nauseum, but drop tanks would seem to be a major part of the answer. Who bears responsibility for why they weren't in service? Some here have made a strong case that Republic was asleep on the job, Greg blames the memo/bomber mafia. If they're arguing about blame, that would seem to indicate agreement on the fact itself....ie., that tactically useable drop tanks should have been in the field in the summer of 1943.
I don't think he or I said that the bomber mafia was homicidal, or intentionally wrong. I'm sure they worked incessantly and tried real hard, most certainly putting more into their work than I ever have. But the results speak for themselves.....the drop tanks weren't ready on the planes that were in service at the time when they were most desperately needed. Why would leadership send those bombers into that meat grinder? I don't believe that they would if they knew it was a meat grinder. They thought the bombers could defend themselves. They were wrong. Apparently, I over-stated the causalities that resulted. Does that invalidate the idea that the real number of casualties were shockingly surprising to all involved, and much more than they should have been, and in fact unsustainable without changes in tactics/pull back from the most dangerous targets?
I personally believe, and it is my opinion not supported necessarily by documentation, that number 1 is possibly true. I'm not sure if they could go all the way to Schweinfurt, but even the big USAAF study that Greg quotes liberally from makes some comment crews gaining confidence and experience in the existing fighter escorts and extending their range through operational procedures (I don't have the exact quote in front of me, I'm sure the experts here will know immediately). That is a very interesting comment that might deserve its own thread. Number 2, is that a joke? Number 3, actually I'm not sure why that is met with so much scorn here. It might have been done with some degree of success. Saving fuel from warmup and taxi, and the first 100 miles would have put how much fuel back in the tanks? And unapproved, so what? Anyone who has done any reading at all can quote many examples of unapproved modifications to hardware and procedures in wartime. Number 4, I have no idea how to answer that.
The whole "thing" about a video titled "lies deceit and treachery" is that there was deliberate lies deceit and treachery (a strong clue in the name). That is the USAAF deliberately conspired to send bombers out without escorts because, well no reason is actually given is it? Apart from they were a mafia, a criminal organisation in other words and some daft memo from 1939 is proof, still obviously valid in 1943 FOUR years later. It is a fisherman's yarn made for those pre disposed to like and believe fisherman's yarns. "Click bait" is the modern vernacular.
PlanesandShips
Airman
- 21
- Feb 25, 2024
I agree that is an inflammatory title to a video. If I ever meet Greg, or get his email address, I will tell him that. Maybe he did it for clicks, I dunno.
Having said that, my guess is that he was referring to the aftermath, the "cover up," so to speak, when he used that title. In other words, my interpretation after listening to his video was that the lies, deceit, and treachery came in when the 8th AF Tactical Development document was created. IIRC from the video, he makes a fairly strong case that the data presented in that report was very carefully selected and presented. As is to be expected, from a bureaucracy imho. The bottom line is that I can't answer for his title, but it does appear to me that the document crafts its words very carefully.
Why is the memo daft? It gave instruction to not develop drop tanks. That's kind of important given the context isn't it?
I found the sentence I was looking for earlier, on page 97: "During the months of May and June, our fighter pilots gained experience, and modifications to equipment now gave them additional confidence in their aircraft." I don't recall if Greg talked about that at all, but when I read that I was gob smacked. So they went to war in an airplane that they didn't have very much confidence in? And what modifications were made? The didn't have enough "experience" to fully exploit the range capability of the airplane? IMO, that is a very damning statement regarding the USAAF and her leadership. May/June of 43 was 18 months into the war, and 2 years after the first flight of the P47. War years are like dog years. 18 months into the war should have been like 7 years in peacetime, imo.
In short, I don't believe that the lies deceit and treachery involved sending the bombers out without escort. I believe that the USAAF leadership ("bomber mafia") truly believed at that time that the bombers could defend themselves much better than they actually were able to do, so they ordered the missions. The lies deceit and treachery came later. That is my interpretation of Greg's narrative, parts of it sound plausible, for example that reports such as the 8th AF document would be written in a certain biased way. Things like the pickle barrel reinforce my belief that the USAAF leadership was overselling their product, that narrative sows distrust in my mind. There were many other examples of wishful thinking in the war reporting at that time, and later. Heck, McNamara knew the Vietnam war couldn't be won in what, 1967? But still it went on.
PlanesandShips
Airman
- 21
- Feb 25, 2024
I just reread my comments above that may have been offensive, a "fresh read," so to speak.
What I MEANT by "in spite of multiple negative comments" was negative comments by other forum members, not the mods. I feel like the mods have been fair with me and if not, I would have been banned. I appreciate their acceptance of the differing opinions offered by non experts such as me.
33k in the air
Staff Sergeant
- 1,261
- Jan 31, 2021
Anyone who uses the phrase 'Bomber Mafia' should be regarded with great skepticism as they are almost certainly pushing an agenda, and facts are entirely secondary (if not tertiary) for them.
We can do basic calculations of the P-47's combat radius right here, right now, by using document AN 01-65BC-1A entitled, Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions for Army Models P-47D -25, -26, -27, -28, -30, and -35 Airplanes dated 25 Jan. 1945, and using its climb and cruise charts. Unfortunately, the cruise charts are only filled out to a limited degree, but there's enough data to make a rudimentary attempt.
91 gallons = amount of fuel consumed climbing to 20,000 feet at a 14,200 lbs gross weight
91 gallons = amount of fuel consumed by fifteen minutes of full MIL and fives minutes WEP
48 gallons = amount of fuel reserve (30 minutes' cruising at maximum range settings at 20,000 feet)
The above adds up to 230 gallons, leaving 140 gallons of the 370 gallon internal capacity for cruising. Column V (Maximum Air Range) shows that the aircraft gets 3.03 air miles per gallon at 20,000 feet (288 mph TAS / 95 gph). Multiplying 140 gallons by 3.03 air miles per gallon equals 424 miles. Divide by two since that distance covers the cruise out and back.
So, on internal fuel only, the later P-47s had a radius of about 212 miles. If the distance covered in the climb is included, along with a few other tweaks, then perhaps that can be increased by another 10 to 20 miles.
The theoretical maximum combat radius is limited by the amount of internal fuel remaining after deducting the fuel used in warm up, take off, and initial climb; the combat fuel allowance; and the 30 minute reserve. Warm up, take off, and initial climb consumed about 33 gallons. Adding that to the combat allowance and reserve yields 172 gallons, leaving 198 of the 370 gallons to cruise back to base. 198 gallons times 3.03 air miles equals 600 miles. So the later P-47s could have a combat radius of up to 600 miles provided you could hang enough external fuel on it. (As it happens, two 150/165 gallon drop tanks would do it — assuming the aircraft had proper pylons, sway braces, and internal plumbing for underwing drop tanks, along with the increased internal fuel capacity.)
If we keep the foregoing numbers the same but reduce the internal fuel to 305 gallons, that lowers the fuel remaining by 65 gallons, which is 195 miles, dropping the theoretical maximum radius to about 405 miles. Of course, that is not really a fair comparison since the earlier P-47 models might have had better cruise performance figures, but it might be illustrative nonetheless. (There is a PFOI available for earlier Thunderbolt models, but its cruise charts are very sparsely filled out. The air miles per gallon in Column IV and V are significantly higher than in the named PFOI, so I am skeptical of the figures' accuracy. At 10,000 feet, it has 3.24 air miles per gallon in Column IV and 3.69 in Column V. For the later P-47 PFOI, it's 2.69 and 3.00 in Column IV and V, respectively.)
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
About the Allied Strategic bombing being a failure - it was far from it.
Several top Germans, especially Albert Speer, remarked that the day and night bombings all but stopped his ability to meet the military's needs.
Yes, production increased in some areas, at the expense of cancelling or limitng production in other areas.
The Allied bombing campaign in 1943 alone, reduced German steel manufacturing by well over 200,000 tons - steel, which was a vital component in a wide range of military equipment.
Another key point - Luftwaffe aircraft production increased until reaching it's peak in 1944, however, reading German records indicate that the continuous bombing saw a large portion of those produced, destroyed on the ground or at railyards during transit to front areas.
These are but a few examples of a very long list.
Several top Germans, especially Albert Speer, remarked that the day and night bombings all but stopped his ability to meet the military's needs.
Yes, production increased in some areas, at the expense of cancelling or limitng production in other areas.
The Allied bombing campaign in 1943 alone, reduced German steel manufacturing by well over 200,000 tons - steel, which was a vital component in a wide range of military equipment.
Another key point - Luftwaffe aircraft production increased until reaching it's peak in 1944, however, reading German records indicate that the continuous bombing saw a large portion of those produced, destroyed on the ground or at railyards during transit to front areas.
These are but a few examples of a very long list.
Shortround6
Major General
There were quite a few lies told during WW II to cover up a number of mistakes. Most use the excuse of "keeping up morale".
www.thehistorypress.co.uk
They were still keeping up morale decades later.
There were a number of aircraft ordered and built that, at best, did not pan out. At worst they were total waste of effort and lives.
A lot of things did not go smoothly. And in 6 years they were phasing out biplanes and starting to issue jets. Lots of room for guessing wrong without getting into criminal conspiracies.
I may try to do a post/thread on short snippets of memos that might not mean what people think they mean. Or perhaps they did but the modern context without background may not give a good way to judge.
The History Press | D-Day training: Exercise Tiger at Slapton Sands
The D-Day training exercise which ended in tragedy in April 1944
www.thehistorypress.co.uk
They were still keeping up morale decades later.
There were a number of aircraft ordered and built that, at best, did not pan out. At worst they were total waste of effort and lives.
A lot of things did not go smoothly. And in 6 years they were phasing out biplanes and starting to issue jets. Lots of room for guessing wrong without getting into criminal conspiracies.
I may try to do a post/thread on short snippets of memos that might not mean what people think they mean. Or perhaps they did but the modern context without background may not give a good way to judge.
PlanesandShips
Airman
- 21
- Feb 25, 2024
With regards to Speer, well, that's Speer. I have all his books, plus Gitta Sereny's book about him. IMO, he is among the most skilled manipulators of all time, he saved his neck from the noose at Nuremburg while the person immediately under him on the org chart got hung. What could be more manipulative than telling your captors what they want to hear in the manner in which they want to hear it?
PlanesandShips
Airman
- 21
- Feb 25, 2024
Thanks for all that data on the performance of the P47.
I hesitate to say "any" or "every." I didn't create the term bomber mafia, nor the term the fighter mafia later. I'm not sure of the etymology of the terms, nor why some find them so offensive. Perhaps a question for Greg in the big debate is to name names, leaders of the various commands, etc, and to cite their backgrounds and policy positions. Then again, there would appear to be people on this very site who could probably recite the leadership of the USAAF, and their backgrounds, from memory. Its less important to me what slang we use than whether or not it is accurate. Were most of the USAAF leadership bomber acolytes that did in fact run off people like Chennault, or not?
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Severe weather, including heavy overcast (like the sort that grounded Allied aircraft during the German Ardennes offensive) can play a major role in how missions were conducted.
Rn vs IJN
In your opinion! The following article paints a rather different picture of that first raid. 12 B-24 took off. 3 failed to reach the target due to "weather, mechanical problems and fuel shortages" only 9 reached the target. In doing so they encountered 3 separate "vicious" weather fronts that...ww2aircraft.net
Maneuverability vs Speed
It was more comfortable dying in the ETO.I'd be as worried about trying to find the airfield. Or even the end of the runway while trying to take off! Those conditions existed frequently in ETO fall, winter and spring. When my father lead the 355th home from Foggia Italy to Steeple Morden...
Allied Fighter vs Fighter: Is it really necessary ???
And NG and Burma has no mountains? If there was one thing the ETO/MTO didnt have that made the Pacific theater so unusual was the severe weather factors that couldn't be forecast as accurately as in Europe. Many times the aircraft had to fly high, or through thunderstorms with more than a few...
There's a wealth of reference material regarding T-storms on the forums, I just don't have time to hunt them all down.
All anyone has to do is look at first Schweinfurt, and how the double raid had its timing screwed by English fog. No thunder reported in my readings, but pushing the mission cost 600 casualties.
Thumpalumpacus
Major
Disregarding Speer, whose memoirs are indeed self-serving, the fact is that by autumn 1944 Pointblank had reduced German fuel production/distribution by 90 or so per cent, discombobulated the rail system such that vital materials were impeded from being shipped to vital factories, and so on.
Strategic bombing did not win the war, but it damned sure helped.
