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Parsifal there's no need to be anal about the subject.
The most frequent cause of burst guns is improper cleaning of the barrel, this causes excessive pressure to built up which can cause the gun to fail. Esp. if happens again and again that the crew forgets to clean the barrel, the repeated overpressure the gun is subjected to will lower the tolerances. This is what I suspect happened. The inexperienced crew weren't cleaning the barrels regularly as they should, and this put extra strain on the gun each time it was fired, until finally it would fail.
Now regarding the British QF 3.7 Inch, it was no more solidly built than the 88mm FlaK 18/36. The difference in weight comes from the different carriages and platforms used, the German went through great work to keep them as light as possible.
While I agree that falling standarts, increased altitudes and many more aspects may be traced down in these numbers I would like to stress that without knowledge of the conditions and targets (B-17 and P-47 may be harder to kill than Whitley and Battles?) one has to be very careful not to draw Scheinkorrelations from the database as a result of interpretation.
From my experiences with meaningful statistic analyses, an appearing statistical relationship between aspect A and B with a high degree of significancy may be related to the influence of another, yet unrevealed aspect C. The established relationship between A and B is in this case virtual and not high (or from a quantitative point of view, the relationship is less pronounced). This is a common way to mess up descriptive statistics when uncritically applied to a databse. A multidimensional factor analysis (Varimax-Kaiser rotation preferred) with screeplot may be used in order to exclude Scheinkorrelations.
Replace the 88mm FLAK by US 90mm guns -do You reasonably expect better or worser results everything else (environmental conditions, ammo, targets, altitudes, firecontroll, crew quality and logistics) beeing equal?
Hi Parsifal,
Ah, thanks a lot for summarizing the addtional data!
>4.41 (Over germany western europe) [note: probably 3.31 here?]
>Shoot downs: 31
>Heavy Flak expenditure 476907
>Rounds per Kill: 10250
>4.41 (Over germany western europe)
>Shoot downs: 62
>Heavy Flak expenditure 282270
>Rounds per Kill: 4553
This seems to indicate that the effectiveness of the Flak could vary considerably depending on external factors or tactics used, even when crew qualification and hardware quality were identical.
(agreed completely)
>Shoot downs: 144
>Heavy Flak expenditure 989035
>Rounds per Kill: 8250
>Avg No Hvy AA: 3888
>Est Year Ammo exp: 2.9 million shells
Hm, here I'm confused ... 144 * 8250 = 1.188.000. This does neither match "heavy flak expenditure" nor "est. year ammo exp."
The 144 and 989035 is only for the first four months only, before the introduction of radar guidance.After may 1941, an increasing percentage of flak in Germany was radar assisted
144 x 3 x 8250 = 3.56 million shells, however, the actual expenditure was less than that at 2.6 million. Also in the latter half of 1941, flak efficiency picked up, so as to aproach that achieved in 1942. The rounds per kill in early 1941 reflects IMO, the lack of radar assistance that existed in the early part of the war.
Seems I don't understand how to read your data yet ... could you explain?
Hope my explanation helps. the data presented is not complete...there is some extrapolation needed....but it does at least give some picture of what Westermann is saying....
H Parsifal,
>So your right for 1944, so many variables are on the move that it is difficult to know which one(s) are the dominant factor in the collapse of Flak effectiveness
In fact, I don't believe that I have seen any evidence to suggest that Flak effectiveness dropped at all.
The increase in the number of rounds required for one kill is an efficiency parameter, so it's not that important if we're talking effectiveness.
The numbers for kills you listed are:
>1942
>Shoot downs: 409 (April-December)
34.1 kills/month
>1943
Shoot downs: 319 (Jan-Jun)
53.2 kills/month
>1944
>Shoot downs: 2343
195.3 kills/month
That looks more like a marked increase in effectiveness, not like a collapse.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Effectively what i derive from your post is that the bombers were avoiding the flak concentrations. Probably true to an extent (corroborated in "Fortess Without a Roof"), but there are limits as to how far this argument can be taken....if the bombers were avoiding the flak, why then the phenomenal ammunition expenditure??? The flak was firing alright...it just was not hitting the target. Why??? Certainly some of it was the result of Allied countermesures. Some of it was due to falling standards in the flak, IMO, but the overall effect was decreased effectiveness in the flak 9whether that decrease in effectiveness was due foreign agency, or by internal failures). The proof of that is the amount of ammunition needed to bring down each bomber. That is still the measure of AA effectiveness used by most armed forces as a measure of firepower effectiveness...how many times do you need to shoot at something before it is destroyed. If datum for effectiveness in 1942 s taken as 1.0, then by 1944 flak effctiveness had dropped to 0.25 of what it was in 1942, on that measure. Cant escape that, unless you deny that ammunition expenditure is not a valid measure of effectiveness, which then brings you into conflict with just about every accepted norm on this sort of issue that I am familiar with.
Certainly some of it was the result of Allied countermesures. Some of it was due to falling standards in the flak, IMO, but the overall effect was decreased effectiveness in the flak 9whether that decrease in effectiveness was due foreign agency, or by internal failures). The proof of that is the amount of ammunition needed to bring down each bomber.
I follow most of what you both are saying, and most of it does make sense. It certainly makes we want to go back and re-evaluate the contents of Westermanns book. i dont suppose eith of you guys can get your hands on a copy and give me your opinion.
Front matters has a number of good articles, I will check my books but am in the moment on excavation quite far from home.Also, do you receommend any books or refence material that might assist in further understanding this issue. It would not hurt to expand the knowledge a bit i think
Basically, from a single battery point of view, this appears to be correct. From a statistical point of view, the number of rounds fired at the 100 bombers would not be identic in both cases. During 1944 more than 3 times as much AAA is deployed and the number of rounds fired would be increased by this and advances in rof (barrage firing requires more output).If i can try and illustrate my point of view....In 1942, if 100 bombers fly over a target, and 48000 rounds are fired at it, statistically that barrage is going to shoot down 12 aircraft. in 1944, that same barrage is going to shoot down 4 aircraft. in my book the 1944 barrage is neither as efficient, nor as effective.
You also seem to hint that 1942 might be some sort of statistical aberration, because if you weight the 1944 numbers according to numbers shot down/ammunition expende, it takes on a much higher statisitcal importance. true enough, however, the dataset that are the 1942 figures are large in themselves, so i am doubtfull that we are looking at any sort of "fluke" so to speak