Anybody know where this FW190 was

Wurger · Dec 10, 2007

Hi Fisher
Because Erich was first with infos on the Fw190A8 or A9 I can add only I agree with him totally.But as far as the tank is concerned the second pic shows M8 Scott or another name 75 mm Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 so it wasn't a tank but a self-propelled howitzer.This vehicle was assembled with parts of M5 Stuart or M5A1 Stuart light tank and used by US recco cavalery units.

Erich · Dec 10, 2007

so am I assuming then this is the recon element of that Armored division with light fast mobile tanks ? excuse me if I missed something..

ok I re-read some postings, the 262 may have been then JG 7 the guys on their way towards Berlin as Fisher mentions

will wait and see

Wurger · Dec 10, 2007

Erich said:
so am I assuming then this is the recon element of that Armored division with light fast mobile tanks ? excuse me if I missed something..

Hi Erich,
Was it to me or to Fisher?

fisher972002 · Dec 10, 2007

Wurger,
Yes, He was in the 85th Recon Cav Squad Mech, and it was a small outfit, only 20 or so guys... So what you are saying is that tank with the short turret gun, is a combination of a few tanks, the M5 and Stuart.. Because I've looked on the net searching "Light Tanks in 85th Recon, 5th AD and can't find much tanks with the short snout, or short turret gun like this one has.. All of them have long guns on them..

Erich
My Grandfather is still with us, but he is in the later stages of alzheimers and is in a sad state as his speech is really bad and can't communicate...

But we have gotten out of him all we can, my mom wrote down all his experiences in multiple pages, and he took lots of pictures.. He took3 rolls of film from Bergen Belzen conc camp, he was there 2 days after it was found, it was crazy... He made the mistake of giving 2 or the 3 rolls to the local german film processor, and they "lost " it and he never got them back, but he has pictures of prisoners and the camp only about 10 pictures, but they are craaazy..... unbelievable..
We have all his discharge papers, he received a silver star although we don't know what from because the records for that were destroyed by a fire in the 70's in Kansas city

We had him go through most of the pictures, some of the stuff he didn't remember exact locations.. The Belgium forest "arndennes" was the closest thing to HELL he kept saying how cold it was over the winter and soo many friends died there......

He has a German Ruger pistol. It's in perfect condition, stamped manufactured 1938 with it's black leather carryer from a german officer.. Also we have a compass from that officer,and a leather mapbook holder, some neat stuff..

fisher972002 · Dec 10, 2007

Erich,
It would have to be Northern Germany, He was never in Bavaria, he was close in Baden Wurttenburg, Wallendorf is sort of close to that area, 2 or 3 hour drive to Hiedelberg I remember.. But I know he was not in Southern Germany/Bavaria, he ran across france from Utah beach D -day plus 6.. Then they raced to close the Falaise Gap in the track cars to cut off the Germans, liberated Paris (His M8 was the 3rd Vehicle through the Arch de triumph at the parade)then they went to Diekirch and Liberated LUX, then went north, then across Belgium, then across N germany to Berlin via Dusseldorf, Hannover.

There just isn't a lot of records for the 85th Recon, they were all over the place and away from the main divisions and sort of fly by the seat, search and find outfit... Very different than most of the accounts you hear of large groups of men fighting like in "A bridge too far" or something.. His stuff were a lot of little skirmishes, they would poke the German defenses, see what happens, then race back, poke and prod.. They ran the hell out of those M8 armored cars and Light tanks, they would steal gas from other vehicles, wherever, whenever to keep going because their lives depended on the vehicles moving and being 'quick on their feet" as he put it..

Erich · Dec 10, 2007

Wurger it was to both of you...........

Fisher keep those memories alive as they fade way to fast, my own grandfathers died really before I was awake enough to hear of their stories, one was a WW 1 veteran, German fighting for the US forces, the other up in years actually at the time of the war went stealth like into Latvia and saw the multitudes of horrors that just would not go away later in his life. this is just from my American side of the Familie only. the German side is a abit more secretive and I am only finding out things from way back even today.

hang onto all momentos from a time gone by you will be glad you did.

side note about JG 7 during 1945 ~ airfields all over the place on grassy strips even and in eastern Germany protecting Berlin.

Brandeburg-Briest and then later Parchim and finally in Czechslovakia at Saatz-Rusin-Prauge.

still may have been a fighter bomber unit they stumbled upon, though I have another idea as well

well get that 1 roll developed when you can and post pics and let us all scratch our heads to pinpoint where he was all along his epic journey during the war....

one of my uncles served in a US artillery battalion and in similiar vein strated out from the Normandie beaches into France, central Germany when the war ended, but sadly 99 % of his pics are destroyed and lost forever. I nearly cried as a young boy hearing this from my aunt who is still living, my uncle passed away years ago from the evil cancer and I know of what you speak when you say Altzheimers............in our familie as well on myn wifes side

fisher972002 · Dec 10, 2007

Wurger,
There you go that is the exact tank
Howitzer Motor carrier M8

Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ok, that explains why he has both pictures of the armored car and the light tank labeled M8.. One is the "Greyhound" the other is the Howitzer 75mm light tank...
The Greyhound is the crazy one that a hole would blow up in the floor of it when you ran over a land mine.. That killed a lot of guys.... But it was soo fast, that's what they closed the Falaise Gap with.... But he was happy to ge the Heavier M8 Howitzer tank after January as it offered lots more protection!

Thanks guys

fisher972002 · Dec 10, 2007

Erich,
You said that that Wulf 190 was the same squadron as your cousin flew, that's pretty cool.. Does your cousin have any accounts.. That's a pretty small world huh..Wow.

Erich · Dec 10, 2007

ok he was in II. gruppe or group. this was made up of 4 staffels or squadrons. My cousin was the in the 5th, the Fw 190 red 22 that you have was from the 7th staffel.
my cousin Siegfried Baer was KIA on 26 November 1944. I am still looking for any type of information on his missions though I have quite a bit really from US sources and Bill who posts here. the Familie in Germany does not talk much of the times back then as the losses were just too deep and still are.

E ~

Wurger · Dec 10, 2007

fisher972002 said:
Wurger,
So what you are saying is that tank with the short turret gun, is a combination of a few tanks, the M5 and Stuart..

Dear mate no ,it wasn't a combination of a few tanks.The vehicle was not a tank at all.It was a self propelled howitzer equipped with 75mm gun-howitzer.Therefore the barrel of the gun was short.
The M3 Stuart light tank was produced in England initially.When USA went into the war the branch of GM firm called Cadillac rebuilt M3 Stuart light tank in October 1941.The tank was powered by two Cadillac V-8 engines and had a new automatic Cadillac Hydea-Matic gear-box.Firstly the new tank was called M4.But in February 1942 the name was changed into M5 because M4 became a name of Sherman.M5A1 was M5 tank with a new longer turret and some additional modifications.In British Army tanks M5 and M5A1 were named Stuart VI. M8 howitzer was one of the last variants of the M3-M5 tank series.In 1942 US Army ordered a new self propelled howitzer with 75 mm gun.Because the gun was heavy Cadillac decided to use the M5 body with its undercarrige frame and engines.Cadillac started assembling of the new 75 mm Howitzer Motor Carriage M8 in September 1942 and stopped in January 1944 with 1778 M8s in total.I hope I helped a bit with the name.

Wurger · Dec 10, 2007

Erich said:
the Fw 190 red 22 that you have was from the 7th staffel.

E ~

Erich dear friend, it was of the 7th staffel or 6th staffel?
Do you mean this "Red22" of 6./Jg301 W.nr.490044?

Source unknown.

Erich · Dec 10, 2007

I'm sorry my hands are too quick, my brain is getting fried at the moment

white - 5th staffel
red - 6th staffel ~ red 22
yellow - 7th staffel
blue - 8th staffel

all this for II./JG 301 flying Fw 190A-8 and A-9's till January of 45 when the gruppe had the Dora 9, the 6th staffel received them in December of 44. 8th staffel never flew the Dora as far as I know but the A variants.

thanks for catching this Wurger that is an interesting werke nummer, and am not so sure that is correct, will check my pics, one of which you hae shown. note the Ju 88G-6 nf's in the background

DBII · Dec 10, 2007

The recon units used light tanks because they were small and fast. The organic arty had to be able to keep up with the recon elements and armor units. Since towed guns could not keep up, the tanks were redesigned to carry the arty. The M8 was a redesigned M5 light tank that carried a 75mm howiter. I can check when I get home if the M8 is listed on the TO&E for the Recon units. The name Stewart was use for both the M3 and M5. It may have been used for the M8 also since they are all the same basic hull design.

Clank Clank, I'm a tank.
DBII

Looks like I am a little late.

Wurger · Dec 10, 2007

Erich said:
I'm sorry my hands are too quick, my brain is getting fried at the moment

I know this I have sometimes the same.

Erich said:
thanks for catching this Wurger that is an interesting werke nummer, and am not so sure that is correct, will check my pics, one of which you hae shown. note the Ju 88G-6 nf's in the background

You are welcome.
In the second pic of the Red22 the werk number is visible partially only.The last three numbers are 044 for sure but the first three ones I'm also not sure.Besides I've also noticed the Ju88G-6 night fighters sitting around.

But I would like to pay your attention to the damages on the Red22 and Fisher's Fw190 rudders.These are a bit different.Besides the Fisher's one don't have a Pitot tube.Is it possible the pic was taken later then the Red22 one?

Wurger · Dec 10, 2007

DBII said:
The name Stewart was use for both the M3 and M5. It may have been used for the M8 also since they are all the same basic hull design..

The M8 howitzer was called "Scott". The M3-M5 tanks were named "Stuart" but not "Steward".

DBII said:
Clank Clank, I'm a tank.

Erich · Dec 10, 2007

yes I noticed a difference in the rudder first off and was questioning in my mind was it the same a/c. then I looked at tail and engine cowling camo and it matches perfectly. from older threads I have pointed out that JG 301 was full of crazy painters and they just applied about everything in their stores to their a/c which made almost each one uniquely different, though the Dora 9's are somewhat consistent if you look at the rudders which change to more greys often and the engine cowlings you will find dark green-brown shades low down or above the exhausts

back to fishers pic it could of been taken earlier than the one you posted Wurger, some hot shot GI may have wanted a little piece for himself or thrown something at the tail........who knows ?

Wurger · Dec 10, 2007

Oh yes !!!!You are right.The GIs could take some pieces as their reminders.
I must admit I tought like you with the camo pattern,At glance it fitted to the Red22 especially on the fin and the engine cowling.So you are right it is the same aircraft.

Erich said:
JG 301 was full of crazy painters and they just applied about everything in their stores to their a/c which made almost each one uniquely different, though the Dora 9's are somewhat consistent if you look at the rudders which change to more greys often and the engine cowlings you will find dark green-brown shades low down or above the exhausts

Therefore I like the Luftwaffe camo patterns.These are very interesting and unique.

Micdrow · Dec 10, 2007

Very cool pictures there fisher972002, I shrank down all the extra white around the pictures, very distracting to look at. Awsome information though guys.

DBII · Dec 10, 2007

Thanks Wurger, I did not know that the M8 had a seperate name. Would you buy that the M5 name error was a typo? I was trying to write between phone calls at work and was distracted. I am new here and it was the first time I could say something of value...lol I guess I blew it.

DBII

Wurger · Dec 10, 2007

DBII said:
Would you buy that the M5 name error was a typo?
DBII

Of course I would.
I also have some problems with these maistakes.Besides some keys on my keyboard are almost invisible with its letters.I have to buy a new one.

best wishes friend.

Anybody know where this FW190 was

Siggy Master

the old Sage

Siggy Master

Airman

Airman

the old Sage

Airman

Airman

the old Sage

Siggy Master

Siggy Master

Attachments

the old Sage

Senior Master Sergeant

Siggy Master

Siggy Master

the old Sage

Siggy Master

“Archive”

Senior Master Sergeant

Siggy Master

Users who are viewing this thread

Similar threads