As a crewman in the ETO, would you rather serve in a B-24 or a B-17?

[Readie]

I SEE reality everytime I watch an episode of COPS.

What on earth has that got to do with your earlier remarks?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Everyone just chill out. Heated discussions are fine, but lets not let it get out of hand.

 

[P-40K-5]

What on earth has that got to do with your earlier remarks?

guess on your end on the pond it would be akin to coronation street.. anyways,
I do not follow the Nazi Idiology for the most part. but my grandfather on my moms side
was an Bf109 pilot. he believed in what he was fighting for, and I respect those beliefs.

not every German pilot/soldier was hypnotised by Hitler yah know, or subscribed to his ideas of
a German world. even if the Germans won the war, Hitler would have been killed shortly thereafter.

all I'm saying is that assumptions are a dangerous thing, you assumed certain things about me without
even knowing me. that sir, is NOT cool.

 

[Jabberwocky]

almost every dedicated Luftwaffe website out there. also, lots of books on the subject. too much
to list here. sorry.

Just a few sources, perhaps?

In all my reading on the Luftwaffe, offline and on, I've NEVER seen a statistical analysis/breakdown of claims separated by fighter types by theater.

There might be one floating around, though, if you'd be so kind as to back your assertions with evidence, other than "everyone knows".

The very high scoring gruppen primarily flew Bf 109s, but they also primarily flew on the Eastern Front. In 1943/1944, the Bf 109 was predominant in Italy and the Eastern Front, the FW 190 the main fighter in the West and the two did about equal duty over German and over Finland and Norway

Looking at a May-1943 Luftwaffe oob, counting servicable aircraft:

Germany (Reich defence):
FW 190: 82
Bf 109: 112

Finland Norway:
FW 190: 58
Bf 109: 50

Italy
FW 190: 4
Bf 109: 212

West
FW 190: 296
Bf 109: 39

East:
FW 190: 171
Bf 109: 469

 

[P-40K-5]

a few sites to compare 109 vs 190


Kacha`s Luftwaffe Page

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe Experten Message Board



a few books for stats on 109 victories

Hungarian Eagles.The Hungarian Air Forces 1920-1945
KM22-Messerschmitt Bf-109G_K Vol.2
Schiffer - Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces Vol. 2. A Chronicle in Photographs
Jagdgeschwader 53 Pik As

you'll find the info and more. sorry I couldn't have been more help.

 

[Njaco]

"Spitfire vs Bf 109" by Tony Holmes also has a slight breakdown of kills during the BoB.

People will start getting infractions if they don't heed Adler's advice.

 

[Jabberwocky]

Kacha`s Luftwaffe Page

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces - Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum

Luftwaffe Experten Message Board



a few books for stats on 109 victories

Hungarian Eagles.The Hungarian Air Forces 1920-1945
KM22-Messerschmitt Bf-109G_K Vol.2
Schiffer - Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces Vol. 2. A Chronicle in Photographs
Jagdgeschwader 53 Pik As

you'll find the info and more. sorry I couldn't have been more help.

I'm well aware of both the LEMB and the 12 O'clock high forum, being a member of both.

The paper references you provide are very general. I have both Weal's JG 53 book and both volumes of Jonowicz's 109G/K history. Both are narrative in format, one dealing with a unit primarily equipped with 109s – which only transferred to Reich defence in late 1943 - and the other providing light theatre-by-theatre account of later 109 operations.

Neither go into any detail in regarding statistics on Bf 109 kills, let alone the relative performance compared to the FW 190.

The Schiffer publication is primarily a photo book, not an analysis, and I'm struggling to understand the relevancy of including a history of the Hungarian air force, when it performed the majority of its operations on the Eastern front and only a minimal amount of time engaging USAAF heavies.


Again, could you kindly provide some statistics that back up your claim that the "vast majority" of USAAF heavies were shot down with 109s?

As you've made the claim, the burden of supporting it falls to you.

 

[parsifal]

Hard to know which aircraft was the better bomber killer IMO. Most of the aces flew the 109, but conversely the FW190 was much more heavily armed. In terms of performance, my humble opinion is that in the critical areas of climb dive and speed, the FW held the edge.

Perhaps the 109 was more the pilots choice, but the 190 was more the killing machine

 

[Readie]

Hard to know which aircraft was the better bomber killer IMO. Most of the aces flew the 109, but conversely the FW190 was much more heavily armed. In terms of performance, my humble opinion is that in the critical areas of climb dive and speed, the FW held the edge.

Perhaps the 109 was more the pilots choice, but the 190 was more the killing machine

I think that you are right parsifal. The FW190 had the edge, A truly fearsome machine in the right hands.
Cheers
John

 

[Readie]

"Spitfire vs Bf 109" by Tony Holmes also has a slight breakdown of kills during the BoB.

People will start getting infractions if they don't heed Adler's advice.

Yes, received and understood

Now...back to the planes....

Cheers
John

 

[P-40K-5]

.
*snip*

Maj. Georg-Peter Eder 36
78
JG 51, JG 2, JG 1, JG 26, Kdo Nowotny, EJG 2, JG 7 rather 21+
Maj. Anton Hackl 34
192
JG 77, JG 11, JG 76, JG 26, JG 300 maybe only 21
Oblt. Konrad "Pitt" Bauer 32
57
JG 51, JG 3, JG 300 -
Obst. Walter Dahl 30
128
JG 3, JG z.b.v., JG 300, EJG 2 -
Maj. Werner Schroer 26
114
JG 27, JG 54, JG 3 15x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 7x B-24
Obstlt. Egon Mayer 26
102
JG 2 21x B-17, 5x B-24
Maj. Rolf-Günther Hermichen 26
64
ZG 1, ZG 76, SKG 210, JG 26, JG 11, JG 104 -
Maj. Hermann Staiger 25
63
JG 20, JG 51, JG 26, JG 1, JG 7 21x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24, 1x Viermot
Lt. Anton-Rudolf Piffer 26
35
JG 1 17x B -17, 5x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24, 1x Stirling
Hptm. Hugo Frey 25
32
LG 2, JG 1, JG 11 19x B-17, 5x B-24, 1x Viermot
Lt. Alwin Doppler 25
29
JG 1, JG 11 16x B-17, 9x B-24
Obstlt. Kurt Bühligen 24
112
JG 2 -
Hptm. Hans Ehlers 24
55
JG 3, JG 1 18x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Maj. Friedrich-Karl "Tutti" Müller 23
140
JG 53, JG 3 15x B-17, 6x B-24, 2x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Heinrich Wurzer 23
26
JG 302 7x B-17, 12x B-24, 4x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Walter Loos 22
38
JG 3, JG 300, JG 301 -
Hptm. Hans Weik 22
36
JG 3, Erg.Gr.Ost, EJG 2 15x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Oblt. Werner Gerth 22
27
JG 53, Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3 16x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24
Obstlt. Heinz "Pritzel" Bär 21
221
JG 51, JG 77, EJGr. Süd, JG 1, JG 3, EJG 2, JV 44 11x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 8x B-24
Hptm. Fritz Karch 21
47
JG 2 -
Lt. Willi Unger 21
24
JG 3, JG 7 13x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Josef "Sepp" Wurmheller 20+
102
JG 53, JG 2 -
Oblt. Wilhelm "Willy" Kientsch 20
53
JG 27 11x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 7x B-24
Hptm. Hans-Heinrich Koenig 20
28
ZG 76, NJG 3, Jasta Helgoland, JG 11 10x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 7x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Willi Reschke 20
27
JG 302, JG 301 9x B-17,1x B-17 HSS, 1x B-17 e.V., 9x B-24
Oblt. Adolf "Addi" Glunz 19
71
JG 52, JG 26, EJG 2, JG 7 14x B-17, 1x B-17HSS, 1x B-17 e.V., 2x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Lt. Klaus Neumann 19
37
JG 51, JG 3, JG 7, JV 44 12x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Heinz Knoke 19
33
JG 52, JG 11, JG 1 15x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Hptm. Rudolf Engleder 19+
22+
JG 1, EJG 2 7x B-17, 10x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24
Hptm. Alfred Grislawski 18
133
JG 52, JGr. Süd, JGr. 50, JG 1, JG 53 17x B-17, 1x B-24
Ofw. Siegfried Zick 18
31
JG 11 12x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Lt. Anton Benning 18
28
JG 302, JG 301 -
Maj. Emil-Rudolf Schnoor 18
23
JG 1 15x B-17, 3x B-24
Maj. Herbert Huppertz 17
78
JG 51, JG 1, JG 5, JG 2 13x B-17, 4x B-24
Ofw. Eduard Isken 17
56
JG 77, JGr 200, JG 53 -
Oblt. Klaus Bretschneider 17
34
JG 300 7x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 6x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS, 1x B-24 e.V.
Oblt. Gustav Sturm 17
22
JG 27, JG 3, JG 51, EJG 2, JG 7 5x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24, 2x B-24 HSS, 1x Lancaster, 1x Halifax
Uffz. Rudolf Hübl 17
20
JG 1 8x B-17,6x B-17HSS,2x B-24,1x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Johannes Pichler 16
75
JG 77 -
Maj. Ernst Börngen 16
41
JG 27 -
Lt. Hans Iffland 16
18
JG 3 5x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24, 2x B-24 HSS
Lt. Rudolf "Rudi" Rademacher 15
97
JG 54, JGr. Nord, JG 7 -
Lt. Leopold "Poldi" Münster 15
95
JG 3 9x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Oblt. Otto Wessling 15
83
JG 3 9x B-17, 6x B-24
Lt. Oskar Zimmermann 15
48
JG 51, JG 3 -
Maj. Günther Specht 15
34
ZG 26, JG 1, JG 11 12x B-17, 3x B-24
Lt. Walter Köhne 15
30
JG 52, JG 1, JG 11, EJG 2 8x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Willi Maximowitz 15
27
Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3 10x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Oblt. Herbert Rollwage 14+
85~
JG 53, JG 106 -
Obst. Walter "Gulle" Oesau 14
125
JG 51, JG 3, JG 2, JG 1 10x B-17, 2x B-24, 1x Lancaster, 1x B-17 e.V.
Ofw. Erwin Laskowski 14
46
JG 51, JG 11 -
Oblt. Franz Ruhl 14
37
JG 3 10x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24, 2x Lancaster
Maj. Walter Matoni 14
34
JG 27, JG 26, JG 2, JG 11 -
Maj. Peter Werfft-Wessely 14
26
JG 27 4x B-17, 6x B-24, 4x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Gerhard Sommer 14
20
JG 1, JG 11 10x B-17, 4x B-24
Maj. Klaus Mietusch 13
75
JG 26 8x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Obstlt. Gerhard Michalski 13
73
JG 53, JG z.b.v., JG 4 8x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24, 1x Lancaster
Maj. Armin Köhler 13
69
JG 27 -
Maj. Erich Hohagen 13
56
JG 51, JG 27, JG 2, JG 7, JV 44 -
Hptm. Harry Koch 13
30
JG 26, JG 1 10x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS
Fw. Karl-Heinz Böttner 13
25
JG 77 -
Fw. Otto Pritzl 13
19
JG 51, JG 302, JG 3, JG 7 -
Lt. Emil-Karl Demuth 13
17
JG 1 9x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24
Oblt. Waldemar-H. Waldi" Radener 12+
37
JG 26, JG 300 6 Viermots as unconfirmed and probably a few more with JG 300
Maj. Erwin Clausen 12
132
LG 2, JG 77, JG 11 11x B-17, 1x B-24
Obst. Gustav Rödel 12
98
JG 27 7x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24
Maj. Siegfried "Wumm" Schnell 12
93
JG 2, JG 54 -
Hptm. Karl Paashaus 12
26
JG 53 8x B-17,3x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Oblt. Ernst-Erich Hirschfeld 12
24
JG 54, JG 300 3x B-17, 8x B-24, 1x B-24 e.V.
Lt. Rudi Dassow 12
22
ZG 1, ZG 76, JG 6 -
Lt. Jürgen Hoerschelmann 12
18
JG 3 7x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Fw. Hans Schäfer 12
18
JG 3 2x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24, 2x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Peter Jenne 12
17+
ZG 1, ZG 26, JG 300 -
Ofw. Ernst Haase 12
16
JG 302 4x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24, 2x B-24 HSS
Fw. Otto Ehrhardt 12
14
JG 3 8x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Obst. Josef "Pips" Priller 11
101
JG 51, JG 26 7x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Oblt. Hans Grünberg 11+
82
JG 3, JG 7, JV 44 5x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24, 2x Lancaster
Oblt. Eugen-Ludwig Zweigart 11
69
JG 54 9x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Lt. Walter Brandt 11
57
LG 2, JG 77, JG 3 -
Oblt. Karl "Charly" Willius 11
50
JG 26, JG 51 8x B-17, 3x B-24
Maj. Karl Rammelt 11
46
JG 51 -
Maj. Wilhelm Moritz 11+
44
ZG 1, JG 77, JG 1, JG 51, JG 3, EJG 1, JG 4 2x B-17, 2x B-17HSS, 3x B-24, 4x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Friedrich May 11
29
JG 2 8x B-17, 2x B-24, 1x Lancaster
Hptm. Ekkehard Tichy 11
25
JG 53, JG 3 6x B-17, 4x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Hptm. Rüdiger von Kirchmayr 10+
50
JG 1, JG 11 2x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Ofw. Karl-Heinz Munsche 10+
20+
JG 2 9x B-17, 1x B-24
Ofw. Hubert Engst 10+
20~
JG Hermann, JG 300 -
Maj. Erich Rudorffer 10
224
JG 2, JG 54, JG 7 -
Maj. Jürgen Harder 10
65
JG 53, JG 11 4x B-17, 6x B-24
Lt. Hermann Buchner 10
58
LG 2, St.G. 1, SG 2, SG 151, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7 -
Maj. Horst Haase 10
56

 

[P-40K-5]

JG 51, JG 3 6x B-17, 4x B-24
Oblt. Karl-Heinz Bendert 10
55
JG 27, JG 104 -
Maj. Ernst Düllberg 10
45
JG 3, JG 27, JG 76, EJG 2, JG 7 5x B-17, 4x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Herbert Schob 10
28
LG 1, ZG 26, ZG 76 -
Lt. Otto Russ 10
27
JG 53 -
Fw. Horst Rippert 10
26
JGr. 200, JG 27 -
Ofw. Hans-Gerd Wennekers 10
24
JG 1, JG 11 7x B-17, 3x B-24
Fw. Kurt Gren 10
23
JG 51, JG 3 -
Lt. Leo Schuhmacher 10
23
ZG 76, JG 1, JG 3, EJG 2, JV 44 -
Lt. Karl Wünsch 10
22
JG 27 -
Lt. Helmut Beckmann 10
18
JG 27 -
Lt. Hans Schrangl 10
14
JG 11 -
Ofw. Franz Steiner 10
12
JG 27, JG 1, JG 11, JV 44 6x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Oblt. Heinz Seidel 10
11
JG 302 6x B-17, 3x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Fw. Gerhard Vivroux 10
11
Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3 7x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Fhj.Fw. Heinz Angres 10
10
JG 3 4x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24
Oblt. Hans Pancritius 10
10
JG 1, JG 11 -
Lt. Rudolf Metz 10
10
JG 5, Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3, JG 4 3x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24
Ofw. Rudi "Bulle" Zwesken 9+
45~
JG 52, JG 300 -
Oblt. Fritz Stehle 9+
26
ZG 26, JG 7 -
Oblt. Erich Hondt 9+
14
JG 11, Jasta Helgoland, JV 44 -
Lt. Karl "Quax" Schnörrer 9
46
JG 54, JG 7, Kdo Nowotny 8x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS
Lt. Fritz Gromotka 9
29
JG 27 3x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 4x B-24
Hptm. Hans Remmer 9
26
JG 27 3x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 5x B-24
Hptm. Otto Meyer 9
21
JG 26, JG 27 -
Lt. Siegfried Müller 9
17
JG 51, JG 3, JG 7 2x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 6x B-24
Lt. Walter Hagenah 9
17
JG 3, JG 11, JG 7 4x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 3x B-24
Hptm. Eberhard Schade 9
11
JG 27 -
Oblt. Heinrich Klöpper 8
94
JG 77, JG 51, JG 1 -
Oblt. Oskar "Ossi" Romm 8
92
JG 51, JG 3 4x B-17, 4x B-24
Ofw. Helmut Rüffler 8
88
JG 3, JG 51 3x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24
Hptm. Otto Schultz 8
73
JG 51 -
Oblt. Günther Seeger 8
56
JG 2, JG 53 6x B-17, 2x B-24
Oblt. Gerhard Vogt 8
48
JG 26 3x B-17, 3x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24 HSS
Maj. Rudolf Klemm 8
42
JG 54, JG 26, JG 7 5x B-17, 3x B-24
Fw. Oskar Bösch 8
18
Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3 4x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24
Oblt. Kurt Gabler 8
14+
JG 300 2x B-17, 6x B-24
Lt. Alexander Ottnad 8
14
JG 27 -
Ofw. Artur Groß 8
11
JG 302 2x B-17, 2x B-24, 4x B-24 HSS
Lt. Hans-Ulrich Jung 8
10
JG 3 5x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Fw. Bernhard Kunze 8
9
JG 1 -
Maj. Heinrich Ehrler 7
208
JG 77, JG 5, JG 7 -
Maj. Theodor Weissenberger 7
208
JG z.b.v., JG 77, JG 5, JG 6, JG 7 -
Hptm. Hermann Segatz 7
40
JG 51, JG 26, JG 5, JG 1 -
Hptm. Johannes Naumann 7
34
JG 26, JG 6, JG 7 -
Ofw. Albert "Adi" Böckl 7
12
JG 26, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7 5x B-17, 1x B24, 1x Halifax
Oblt. Karl-Heinz Kapp 7
12
JG 27 -
Lt. Hannes Löffler 7
11
JG 27 -
Ofw. Eberhard Kroker 7
9+
JG 302, JG 300 -
Fw. Georg Schanz 7
9
JG 27 -
Lt. Willi Hallenberger 7
8
JG 51,JG 302 -
Ofw. Herbert Stephan 7
8
JG 302 -
Obst. Hermann Graf 6
212
JG 11,JG 51,JG 52,JGr.50,E.Gr.Ost 3x B-17, 1x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS, 1x Viermot
Maj. Walter Höckner 6
68
JG 52, JG 77, JG 26, JG 1, JG 4 5x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS
Oblt. Wilhelm Hofmann 6
44
JG 26 2x B-17, 1x B-17 e.V., 2x B-24, 1x B-24 HSS
Hptm. Wolfgang Kosse 6
28
JG 26, JG 5, Sturmstaffel 1, JG 3 3x B-17, 2x B-17 HSS, 1x B-24
Oblt. Artur Beese 6
22
JG 26 4x B-17, 2x B-24
Hptm. Franz Schall 5
133
JG 52, Kdo Nowotny, JG 7 2x B-17, 1x B-24, 3x Lancaster
Lt. Gerhard Bärsdorf 5
7
JG Hermann, JG 300 2x B-17, 1x B-17 HSS, 2x B-24

top 50 or so. more then half flew only the 109. others flew both. happy hunting

 

[Lighthunmust]

Not having made a close analysis of the sources provided I can only offer an impression of what I am seeing.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the matter under discussion is which is the better bomber destroyer.

Perhaps the Bf109 destroyed more bombers but was not the most efficient bomber destroyer.
Perhaps the Fw190 destroyed less bombers but was more efficient at doing so and was a "better" bomber destroyer than the Bf109.

Freeman in the Mighty Eighth clearly states that the heavily armed and armored Fw190s were the most effective.
Elsewhere I recall reading that the bomber crews most feared the heavily armed twin engined fighters.
I don't recall reading anything indicating that the Bf109 was feared more than any other attacker.


In regard to the actual topic of this thread.

In the absence of evidence that the USAAF/USAF statistics provided by Jabberwocky are based on flawed methodology:

The statistics indicate that a crewman has better a chance of survival flying missions in a B-24.

The statistics do not indicate that a crewman has a better chance of survival in a B-24 when under attack.

The vast majority of opinions I have read from participants in the ETO bomber force and of postwar writers conclude that the B-17 was a much more survivable aircraft when under attack and the crew was more likely to survive than in a B-24.

These questions remain and may never be capable of being answered:

Was the USAAF/USAF methodology flawed?

Did the extra speed of the B-24 significantly reduce the time of exposure to attack to make it a statistically safer aircraft to fly missions?

Did the greater numbers of B-24s than B-17s, and the time and type of missions they flew skew the USAAF/USAF statistics to indicate the B-24 was a safer aircraft for a crewman?

I think I would still rather be on a B-17 than on a B-24 flying missions in the ETO. Getting halfway down the path to victory is having the confidence in your weapon to prevent fear from compromising your personal performance.

 

[P-40K-5]

the Bf109G-6/U4 had a powerfull punch, 2 Mg 131 MK 108 cannon in the fuse,
and two MK 108 cannons on the wings, a few hits is more then enough to dispatch
a B-17. a few direct hits on a B-24 would be devestating. no doubt though the Fw190
had more armor.

now as to the B-17 / B-24, I think that the B-17 was much more structurally sound then
the B-24. theres lots of youtube footage of both getting hit by 109s 190s. seems the
B-24 survivability was not as good as the B-17.

 

[Readie]

.

Freeman in the Mighty Eighth clearly states that the heavily armed and armored Fw190s were the most effective.
Elsewhere I recall reading that the bomber crews most feared the heavily armed twin engined fighters.
I don't recall reading anything indicating that the Bf109 was feared more than any other attacker.
The vast majority of opinions I have read from participants in the ETO bomber force and of postwar writers conclude that the B-17 was a much more survivable aircraft when under attack and the crew was more likely to survive than in a B-24.

These questions remain and may never be capable of being answered:

Was the USAAF/USAF methodology flawed?

Did the extra speed of the B-24 significantly reduce the time of exposure to attack to make it a statistically safer aircraft to fly missions?

Did the greater numbers of B-24s than B-17s, and the time and type of missions they flew skew the USAAF/USAF statistics to indicate the B-24 was a safer aircraft for a crewman?

I think I would still rather be on a B-17 than on a B-24 flying missions in the ETO. Getting halfway down the path to victory is having the confidence in your weapon to prevent fear from compromising your personal performance.

Steve,
I have seen pictures of some damaged B17's that made it home. The damage beggars belief, even one German fighter colliding with in and nearly servering the tail section. Tough airplane or what.
I agree that the FW190 was more capable and rightly feared. Luckily, the Third Reich was on its knees and not able to produce significant numbers of fighters, otherwise the ETO would have been even more of a blood bath.
Cheers
John

 

[Jabberwocky]

P-40K,

Presenting an unsorted list does not make for statistical evidence, nor debate.

For example, the first pilot in your list started his service in 109s, but made the majority of his USAAF heavy bomber kill claims in FW 190s (22 of his 36) and then later flew Me 262s, claiming another five heavy bomber kills while doing so.

Seems somewhat contrary to your opinion.

Again, please, do you have any statistical evidence is there that the Bf 109 made the "vast majority" of heavy bomber kill claims by the Luftwaffe?

 

[Readie]

P-40K,

Presenting an unsorted list does not make for statistical evidence, nor debate.

For example, the first pilot in your list started his service in 109s, but made the majority of his USAAF heavy bomber kill claims in FW 190s (22 of his 36) and then later flew Me 262s, claiming another five heavy bomber kills while doing so.


Seems somewhat contrary to your opinion.

Again, please, do you have any statistical evidence is there that the Bf 109 made the "vast majority" of heavy bomber kill claims by the Luftwaffe?

I have been mulling over the lists of achievements that have been posted.
I'm coming round to the view that the real heros are not those defending their homeland or those attacking Germany when their own liberty is at stake.
That honour must go to the countries whose position mean they would never be affected by the outcome of the ETO and who selflessly gave their lives to defend the free world by crushing the Nazi machine.
The American nation and the Commonwealth countries.
Cheers
John

 

[michaelmaltby]

".... I'm coming round to the view that the real heros are not those defending their homeland or those attacking Germany when their own liberty is at stake. That honour must go to the countries whose position mean they would never be affected by the outcome of the ETO and who selflessly gave their lives to defend the free world by crushing the Nazi machine. The American nation and the Commonwealth countries ..."

This is absolutely the truth of the matter. We could also speak of the heroism of the English Speaking World - roughly the same as - "The American nation and the Commonwealth countries ...".

In today's troubled world - the true democracies - 'the english speaking world' comprising a large measure of the whole - needs to start thinking this way. In the end it is the heroism of Christian Democracies - secure enough to embrace diversity and open-mindedness - and yet remain resolute to Christian democratic traditions - that are all that has stood between the The Evil Empire and The Free World - and now stand between militant Islam and The West.

Canada went from nothing (militarily speaking) in September 1939 to the third largest AF - fourth largest navy - well equipped - mechanized army in May, 1945. We left most our "mechanization" behind in Holland and Belgium. Came home and created the Baby Boom. In 5 years our military had gone back to where it was (but with massive amounts of great experience). Heroes come to help. Ask nothing. Risk their lives. Fight hard. Win. Go home. Hard for the USA to have done in 1945 though - Europe needed The Marshall Plan. That too was HEROIC.

MM

 

[Lighthunmust]

In today's troubled world - the true democracies - 'the english speaking world' comprising a large measure of the whole - needs to start thinking this way. In the end it is the heroism of Christian Democracies - secure enough to embrace diversity and open-mindedness - and yet remain resolute to Christian democratic traditions - that are all that has stood between the The Evil Empire and The Free World - and now stand between militant Islam and The West.

MM

I respectfully suggest "Western Democracies" and "Western democratic traditions" are more accurate terms of description.

 

[Readie]

'Europe needed The Marshall Plan. That too was HEROIC'

Very true, that alone has secured the peace in Europe since 1945.
In fact, the American dollar has kept the UK afloat through the 'white heat' era of the Wilson government.

Cheers
John